WEBVTT 00:02.033 --> 00:05.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It was, in one sense, a tough week for RFK Jr. who was bludgeoned 00:07.133 --> 00:09.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% in the Senate for his management of the Centers for Disease Control and for his 00:09.266 --> 00:13.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% views on vaccines. But he fought back and continues to carry out his revolutionary 00:13.900 --> 00:18.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% agenda with speed, enthusiasm, and with the apparent support of his boss. 00:18.533 --> 00:20.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And halfway around the world, 00:20.566 --> 00:24.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% America's adversaries gathered in Beijing in a show of force that highlighted their 00:24.300 --> 00:29.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% strengthening alliance and their growing contempt for the United States, next. 01:34.466 --> 01:37.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Good evening and welcome to Washington Week. 01:37.333 --> 01:42.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Scientists have endorsed the efficacy of vaccines for quite literally hundreds of years. It's always 01:44.600 --> 01:47.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% worth noting that George Washington and himself had his troops vaccinated for smallpox. So, 01:50.000 --> 01:53.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% naturally, in the year 2025, the secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., 01:53.233 --> 01:58.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% spent a day debating vaccination with various senators of both parties. He also spent a good 02:00.233 --> 02:02.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% deal of time answering questions about his management of the agencies responsible for 02:02.366 --> 02:07.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% protecting the nation's health, including and especially the Centers for Disease Control. 02:07.100 --> 02:12.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% In normal times, these extraordinary arguments would be the only news we'd be talking about, 02:12.066 --> 02:14.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but this is also the week we saw China, Russia, 02:14.366 --> 02:19.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and America's now possibly former quasi ally, India, create a tacit alliance against Trump. 02:21.633 --> 02:26.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Joining me tonight at the table to discuss all of this, Elizabeth Bumiller, a writer at large 02:28.533 --> 02:31.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% at The New York Times, Leigh Ann Caldwell is the chief Washington correspondent for Puck, 02:33.666 --> 02:36.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Stephen Hayes is the editor of The Dispatch, and Vivian Salama is a staff writer at The Atlantic. 02:38.633 --> 02:41.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Thank you all for joining me. I appreciate it. 02:41.266 --> 02:45.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Let me start with a very basic question, just to level set. Elizabeth, 02:45.333 --> 02:50.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% what is RFK's unvarnished view of vaccines? How much of an extreme view does he actually have? 02:53.333 --> 02:55.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ELIZABETH BUMILLER, Writer at Large, The New York Times: Well, he has one of the 02:55.466 --> 02:59.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% most extreme public views in the country, I would say, among an official. It's a little 03:01.300 --> 03:03.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% hard to know exactly where he is because he said in his confirmation hearings that 03:03.900 --> 03:08.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% he was not going to stand in the way of people having access to vaccines, the COVID vaccine. 03:09.666 --> 03:12.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes. 03:12.000 --> 03:14.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% ELIZABETH BUMILLER: However, that exactly where he is right now, and it caused the huge disturbance 03:14.300 --> 03:18.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and huge shouting at the hearing this week, where he basically said that the vaccine had killed more 03:22.233 --> 03:27.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% people than it saved, he said very strange things. He -- you know, he said that the head of the CDC 03:31.600 --> 03:36.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% who he had fired had said she was -- she couldn't be trusted, and senators said, but you're lying. 03:39.033 --> 03:43.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% So, you know, we know, for example, that he has been vaccinated. We know 03:43.333 --> 03:48.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% his children have been vaccinated, but yet he doesn't seem to want the rest of the country, 03:50.466 --> 03:53.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% or at least most people in this country to be vaccinated. And it's caused it to -- you know, 03:55.533 --> 03:57.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% right now we're seeing, you know, states now are, like in New York and Massachusetts, 03:57.533 --> 04:00.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% are saying we're going to be giving the vaccine to everybody who wants 04:00.500 --> 04:05.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it. But it's caused a big mess nationally as the, you know, COVID season is upon us. 04:07.733 --> 04:12.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Steve, how popular is this, as a position among the Republican base? 04:14.566 --> 04:16.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% STEPHEN HAYES, Editor, The Dispatch: More popular than it was ten years ago. I think 04:16.733 --> 04:21.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the reason that RFK Jr. has the position he has is because he has decades of experience 04:23.433 --> 04:26.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% being anti-vaccine. This is what gave him a follow and gave him a constituency and 04:26.300 --> 04:31.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ultimately led to this deal with RFK Jr. and Donald Trump. It's why he is where he is today. 04:33.100 --> 04:36.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% There's polling that shows Republicans, and this is increasingly partisan, 04:36.133 --> 04:38.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of course, polarized, because everything is, 04:38.500 --> 04:43.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% shows Republicans are increasingly skeptical of vaccines as these arguments are made public. 04:44.733 --> 04:46.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: More than just the COVID vaccine? 04:46.566 --> 04:48.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% STEPHEN HAYES: More than just the COVID vaccine. Yes, we saw Ron DeSantis, 04:48.866 --> 04:53.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% we saw a movement in Florida this week to end the mandates for vaccines for kids in schools. 04:55.600 --> 04:59.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% I think there's growing skepticism among Republicans, but not as much as you might 04:59.200 --> 05:02.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% think. I mean, still three quarters of Republicans, according to most polling, 05:02.800 --> 05:07.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% support widespread vaccines. So, the skepticism that we've seen hasn't 05:09.566 --> 05:11.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% gotten to the point where Republicans are running away from all vaccines. 05:11.966 --> 05:16.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Leigh Ann, let me ask you this question. Tell them, 05:16.800 --> 05:21.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I'll call them back. This is the strange thing to me. Arguably, 05:25.200 --> 05:30.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the greatest achievement of Donald Trump's first term was Operation Warp Speed, 05:32.266 --> 05:35.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% which brought about the vaccines that allowed us to exit the pandemic. What interest does 05:38.400 --> 05:43.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Trump have here in putting forward RFK and his rather radical views of vaccines? 05:46.333 --> 05:48.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% LEIGH ANN CALDWELL, Chief Washington Correspondent, Puck: Yes, it's really 05:48.800 --> 05:52.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% complicated for Donald Trump. As Stephen said, RFK Jr. is a big reason why Donald Trump was elected, 05:54.166 --> 05:58.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% this coalition of the MAHA-MAGA base really propelled him to win this election. But then 06:00.933 --> 06:05.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% he has this major success with Operation Warp Speed, which it was reported this week that 06:08.000 --> 06:12.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Donald Trump has privately told supporters that he wishes he could talk about it more. 06:14.333 --> 06:16.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And you're also seeing a little bit of angst and anxiety from the president when he speaks about 06:16.533 --> 06:21.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% things publicly. He had a Truth Social this week where he said, what is happening at the CDC? If 06:24.066 --> 06:29.033 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% what -- if these vaccines are good, these pharmaceutical companies need to come forward and 06:29.033 --> 06:34.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% show us. They're not telling the American public that things are safe. And then also just tonight, 06:36.066 --> 06:39.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% he was asked by reporters in the Oval about the Florida mandate, about stripping the 06:39.666 --> 06:44.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% mandate for vaccines in schools. And he said that that could actually be quite problematic 06:44.066 --> 06:49.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% because some vaccines are actually quite helpful. He pointed to polio specifically. 06:50.733 --> 06:55.000 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% But with all that said, while Trump seems to be torn, RFK Jr.'s job does 06:56.500 --> 06:58.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% not seem to be in jeopardy by any stretch of the imagination. 06:58.466 --> 07:01.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want to come back to that question and then, but let's talk 07:01.033 --> 07:05.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% about the Senate hearings. I want you all to watch the -- one of the 07:05.200 --> 07:10.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% many heated exchanges between a Democratic senator and RFK. 07:12.266 --> 07:16.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): Do you accept the fact that a million Americans died from COVID? 07:16.000 --> 07:19.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HHS Secretary: I don't know how many died. 07:19.666 --> 07:23.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% MARK WANRER: You are the secretary of Health and Human Services. You don't 07:23.033 --> 07:26.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% have any idea how many Americans died from COVID? 07:26.366 --> 07:30.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: I don't think anybody knows that because there was 07:30.633 --> 07:35.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% so much data chaos coming out of the CDC, and there was -- 07:35.266 --> 07:37.666 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (CROSSTALKS) 07:37.666 --> 07:41.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% MARK WARNER: You don't know the answer of how many Americans from COVID? This is the secretary 07:43.733 --> 07:47.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% of Health and Human Services. Do you think the vaccine did anything to prevent additional deaths? 07:49.500 --> 07:53.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Again, I would like to see the data and talk about the data. I'm not -- 07:55.666 --> 07:56.966 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% MARK WARNER: You had this job for eight months and you don't know 07:56.966 --> 07:59.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the data about whether the vaccine saved lives? 07:59.566 --> 08:01.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: And that's the problem, 08:01.933 --> 08:05.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% is that they didn't have the data. The data by the Biden administration, absolutely dismal. 08:06.533 --> 08:08.100 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (CROSSTALKS) 08:08.100 --> 08:11.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Vivian, how would you grade his performance? 08:11.866 --> 08:13.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% VIVIAN SALAMA, Staff Writer, The Atlantic: It is exactly what -- I mean, 08:13.866 --> 08:17.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I'm not going to give him a grade, but I say it wasn't surprising that this, 08:17.433 --> 08:22.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% these were his answers because he has repeatedly justified the massive cuts to the Health and Human 08:24.533 --> 08:28.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Services Department because of claims like this that he says the data was not reliable, 08:30.700 --> 08:33.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the people who were compiling the data were not reliable or qualified enough to do so. And so this 08:37.266 --> 08:42.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% is something that we heard repeatedly on Thursday while he was testifying, is that the data was not 08:44.466 --> 08:47.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% reliable. You don't know how many people died of COVID because none of the data was reliable, 08:49.566 --> 08:52.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% but also the people who were running the CDC and HHS were not qualified people. He even called the 08:55.266 --> 09:00.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% now former CDC director a liar at some points because she claimed, and she wrote in The Wall 09:02.600 --> 09:06.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Street Journal in an editorial that she was being pushed to empower the views of recommendations 09:09.433 --> 09:14.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% of anti-vaxxers. And this essentially politicized the department. This was a problem that they saw. 09:16.366 --> 09:20.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Steve, is this -- does he have any foundation to stand on when 09:22.633 --> 09:25.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% he talks about the unreliability of the data, are we just an Alice in Wonderland? 09:25.166 --> 09:27.300 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% STEPHEN HAYES: Well, look, I mean, I think you can say, you know, 09:27.300 --> 09:32.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% was it 1.2? Was it 1.24? Of course, we don't know probably to the exact person. But, 09:33.866 --> 09:38.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% no, I mean, this is well established. It's on the CDC and the HHS websites, 09:38.400 --> 09:42.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the government's estimates of how many people died, and the effectiveness of vaccines. 09:42.866 --> 09:47.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Now, this is something that RFK Jr. does all the time. He did it in his pre government life 09:47.600 --> 09:52.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% as he's making the case against vaccines, is he pretends that there's no data. You know, 09:52.066 --> 09:57.066 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% there could be dozens of peer reviews, study peer-reviewed studies on topic X 09:58.833 --> 10:01.000 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and he would say, well, we really don't know. We need to wait for the data. 10:01.000 --> 10:05.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The data is often there. He just doesn't want to accept it. And he uses this. He sort of injects 10:07.833 --> 10:11.166 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% confusion into the debate, I think, to muddy the waters about the efficacy of things like vaccines. 10:11.166 --> 10:13.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Elizabeth, Vivian wouldn't give him a grade, 10:13.500 --> 10:18.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but maybe you will, not a grade. Don't give a grade. Just it seemed like he was very 10:21.033 --> 10:24.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think the word would be lippy with the Democratic senators. 10:24.666 --> 10:26.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% ELIZABETH BUMILLER: Yes, he was. 10:26.400 --> 10:28.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That plays well, I guess, among MAGA people, 10:28.800 --> 10:33.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% people who don't like the Democrats. It does seem like a bit of a distraction 10:33.500 --> 10:38.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% for Trump who has other things that he cares about more than vaccine fighting. 10:40.566 --> 10:43.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ELIZABETH BUMILLER: Well, that's what's so interesting. Trump has not come out and given 10:43.233 --> 10:48.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% him a big defense at all. You know, he says -- he hasn't said he is doing a great job. He did a 10:50.400 --> 10:53.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% great job in the hearing. He's been very silent, notably. And that's not that's interesting. 10:53.533 --> 10:58.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And as we talked about before, you know, Operation Warp speed was one of, you know, a triumph of 11:00.800 --> 11:03.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the Trump administration and also the Biden administration later. But, you know, here, he has 11:03.233 --> 11:07.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% this -- yes, he's very pleased to have a Kennedy in this cabinet. You know, he had a Democrat in 11:07.833 --> 11:12.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% his cabinet, a big name like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. He -- but this was not a good performance. I think 11:15.433 --> 11:20.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Trump was very into television. I can't believe he watched this and thought this was good for him. 11:22.400 --> 11:24.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Is that what this is about, having a Kennedy in the cabinet? 11:24.166 --> 11:26.166 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% VIVIAN SALAMA: There's a lot of that, and Trump has not made a secret of 11:26.166 --> 11:29.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that. He's repeatedly said that he loves having a Kennedy, but it has to be said. 11:29.666 --> 11:33.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And just to echo Elizabeth, it's very interesting to see that Trump has allowed him to sort of 11:33.900 --> 11:38.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% carve out a piece of the pie. Trump has really owned the MAGA movement, but this MAHA movement, 11:38.700 --> 11:43.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Make America Healthy Again, that now is really owned by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., 11:43.466 --> 11:47.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% is something that has gotten Trump's blessing, but he's sort of telling him, you do you, 11:47.700 --> 11:52.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you do your own thing, we'll stay over here as MAGA people. And he allows him to kind 11:52.566 --> 11:57.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of operate adjacent but separate from what MAGA is doing, and that is really telling. 11:57.366 --> 12:02.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Leigh Ann, I want to show the panel Senator Barrasso, 12:04.200 --> 12:07.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the number two Republican in the Senate. This is not Mark Warner, a Democrat, 12:10.200 --> 12:12.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% talking about MAHA or talking about the having a fight over vaccines. This is a very high ranking 12:15.200 --> 12:20.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Republican who also happens to be a physician. Let's just listen to him for one minute. 12:21.700 --> 12:24.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% SEN. JOHN BARRASSO (R-WY): In your confirmation hearings, 12:24.133 --> 12:27.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% you promised to uphold the highest standards for vaccines. Since then, I've grown deeply concerned. 12:28.966 --> 12:32.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The public has seen measles outbreaks, leadership of the National Institute of 12:32.133 --> 12:37.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Health questioning the use of mRNA vaccines, the recently confirmed director of Centers for 12:39.033 --> 12:42.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Disease Control and Prevention fired. Americans don't know who to rely on. 12:44.633 --> 12:47.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% If we're going to make America healthy again, we can't allow public health to be undermined. 12:49.833 --> 12:54.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Does this put RFK Jr.'s position in danger? 12:57.033 --> 12:59.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: I don't think so. I think that this hearing was an opportunity for these 12:59.633 --> 13:04.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% senators to express their concerns and their discontent with RFK Jr., especially, you know, 13:06.433 --> 13:09.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Barrasso is a doctor, so he needed to be on the record for that. And perhaps 13:12.300 --> 13:15.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% he's having private conversations with the Trump administration or with the president about RFK Jr. 13:17.700 --> 13:21.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% But I don't think that this is going to be the thing right now yet that senators are going to go 13:23.800 --> 13:28.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% to bat for to break with the present and to really pressure him to get rid of his HHS Secretary. 13:30.333 --> 13:33.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% One thing that is going to be important to watch is that, which Barrasso said in his 13:33.600 --> 13:38.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% hearing is in a couple weeks, the CDC Advisory - - Vaccine Advisory Board is going to meet about 13:40.766 --> 13:44.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% children vaccines, and there's going to be a lot of senators who are going to pay a lot of 13:44.233 --> 13:49.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% attention to that. But RFK Jr., like I said, I don't think his job's in jeopardy right now. 13:51.200 --> 13:53.100 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Let's talk about the CDC for a minute on not the political 13:53.100 --> 13:58.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% level but the actual practical level. Many, many people fired across divisions, 14:01.333 --> 14:06.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% many people who have quit in disgust or in protest. Give us a sense of the CDC and its, 14:10.466 --> 14:15.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to borrow a term, efficacy as the world's leading preventer of disease. 14:17.500 --> 14:21.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ELIZABETH BUMILLER: Well, it's in shambles right now. There's -- all the experts, 14:23.733 --> 14:26.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% all the four or five top scientists have left. The secretary of Health and Human Services has 14:29.833 --> 14:33.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% just completely undermined it to large portion of the American public by saying it can't be 14:33.900 --> 14:38.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% trusted. It's corrupt. Those words matter to a lot of people in the United States. 14:41.033 --> 14:44.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so it is -- we are in -- you know, I have heard so many health experts say in the last 14:46.433 --> 14:50.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% couple weeks, we are in terrible trouble in the United States in terms of our public health. 14:50.000 --> 14:55.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% They say this is the worst situation they've seen in a hundred years. On top of RFK Jr., 14:57.066 --> 15:00.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you know, pulling half a billion dollars for mRNA research, which is not just about vaccines, 15:02.866 --> 15:06.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it's about fighting a lot of other diseases, that's been stopped. And then he is also, 15:08.533 --> 15:11.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% you know, questioning the efficacy of the measles vaccine, which -- so this is a dangerous time. 15:13.100 --> 15:14.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Steve, 15:14.933 --> 15:18.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% is this a bill that's just going to come due in some terrible way? 15:18.433 --> 15:20.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% STEPHEN HAYES: I mean, it's hard to imagine that it isn't. I mean, 15:20.866 --> 15:25.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I think some of it is what negative consequences are we likely to see from this. I think the CDC is 15:25.200 --> 15:29.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% much less effective today than it was eight months ago because of the departures that 15:29.433 --> 15:34.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% we've seen. More than 2,000 people have either been fired or have left on their own accord. 15:34.400 --> 15:39.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The other question is, what progress aren't we making? Elizabeth mentions the, it was 15:39.100 --> 15:44.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% $500 million in mRNA research that was pulled back in August. That was funding 15:45.566 --> 15:50.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% research and very promising research into cancer. MRNA, 15:52.500 --> 15:55.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% one of the benefits of it is it's quick and it's adaptive. So, you can make progress 15:55.833 --> 15:59.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% quickly. This is one of the reasons that the COVID vaccine was as successful as it was. 15:59.733 --> 16:04.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% You can make progress very quickly to fight any of a number of things. We're not doing the 16:04.066 --> 16:09.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% research that we once were doing. So, what progress are we not making at this point? 16:09.800 --> 16:12.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. 16:12.000 --> 16:14.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: And I also think that what could happen is we're going to have red states 16:14.466 --> 16:19.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and blue states with completely different vaccine policies. As we've talked about already tonight, 16:21.233 --> 16:25.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Florida is the first state to move forward with stopping the requirement of vaccines in schools. 16:27.033 --> 16:30.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% You have Washington, Oregon, and California who are coalescing around what they say is 16:33.166 --> 16:36.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% science and going to move forward and continue to study and offer vaccines. But diseases also don't 16:40.933 --> 16:45.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% adhere to state lines. And so this is a broader public health issue. But, again, it's going to be 16:47.966 --> 16:51.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% completely more -- another thing that divides this country into what state you live in. 16:51.200 --> 16:56.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% VIVIAN SALAMA: And when that happens, you erode the public's trust in public health. I mean, 16:58.200 --> 17:01.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and that's the big issue here. Do I get my child vaccinated? Will my elderly relative 17:03.466 --> 17:06.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% have access to chronic disease care? All of these things now could be thrown into jeopardy, 17:07.566 --> 17:10.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% just even to trust that you know what to do or 17:10.400 --> 17:14.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% who to believe. That's what experts are saying could really take a hit the most. 17:14.133 --> 17:17.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% STEPHEN HAYES: And I have to say, I mean, some of that is earned, right? I mean, 17:17.100 --> 17:21.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% if you look back on COVID, some of the things that we heard from public health experts who we 17:21.900 --> 17:26.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% were told to trust, they didn't adapt to new data. They did say things that were untrue, 17:26.866 --> 17:31.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% including Anthony Fauci early, about the efficacy of masks because he wanted to preserve PPE. So, 17:33.966 --> 17:37.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% some of that I think is earned. And certainly among the right, there's this growing skepticism. 17:38.466 --> 17:41.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But it's also the case, I think, that this is the goal of RFK Jr. 17:41.833 --> 17:46.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% here. He wants to sow this mistrust because he doesn't trust them himself. 17:46.533 --> 17:51.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: But what is -- this is an impossible question probably to answer, but what 17:53.833 --> 17:56.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% is his vision of a future in which we don't have a CDC or an FDA or an effective NIH? We're all 18:02.066 --> 18:07.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% going to get healthy because we're not eating food dies anymore? I ask this seriously. What's the -- 18:09.166 --> 18:13.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% STEPHEN HAYES: He says we were lied to by everybody about everything during COVID. Now, 18:13.033 --> 18:16.066 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% that's, of course, not true, but he doesn't trust any of those people. So, 18:16.066 --> 18:18.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think to answer your question directly, 18:18.466 --> 18:21.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% he would think it's a better world if we don't have to listen to the experts who occupy those -- 18:21.733 --> 18:24.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% VIVIAN SALAMA: He's aiming to reinvent it. 18:24.000 --> 18:26.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% STEPHEN HAYES: Absolutely, he wants to remake American healthcare, American public health. 18:26.800 --> 18:28.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Obviously a subject we'll come back to. 18:28.800 --> 18:33.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% I want to pivot though to these meetings among China, North Korea, Russia, 18:35.900 --> 18:40.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and China in particular this week feels pretty good about itself. Russia obviously 18:42.800 --> 18:47.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% feels pretty good about itself. It got out of the pressure that came out from 18:49.833 --> 18:54.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% under the pressure Trump was putting on to come bring an end to the war in Ukraine. 18:56.466 --> 18:59.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I want to read something that Tom Nichols wrote in The Atlantic yesterday. The leaders of Russia, 19:01.800 --> 19:05.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% China, and North Korea are not good men. They preside over brutal autocracies, 19:05.333 --> 19:07.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% replete with secret police and prison camps, 19:07.466 --> 19:12.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but they are nevertheless serious men, and they know an unserious man when they see one. 19:12.066 --> 19:15.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% For nearly a decade, they have taken Donald Trump's measure and they've clearly reached 19:15.666 --> 19:20.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a conclusion, the president of the United States is not worthy of their respect. 19:22.733 --> 19:26.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Steve, that's rough stuff, but it's true that Putin didn't end the war because Trump 19:28.600 --> 19:33.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% came back into power and that China certainly doesn't seem intimidated by the United States. 19:35.700 --> 19:36.966 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% STEPHEN HAYES: Right. 19:36.966 --> 19:39.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Give us your analysis. 19:39.133 --> 19:41.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% STEPHEN HAYES: Well, if you look at this gathering earlier this week, you had America's 19:43.966 --> 19:47.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% foremost adversaries declaring that their goal was to bring an end to the rules-based post-war 19:49.733 --> 19:54.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% international order driven by the United States - - created and driven by the United States 19:54.000 --> 19:59.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% for our own benefit. And it's as if the Trump administration of the United States is looking 20:01.166 --> 20:04.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% at them doing this. I mean, Vladimir Putin said that directly. The Trump administration 20:06.466 --> 20:09.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% is looking at him doing this and saying, in effect, maybe not intent, but, in fact, 20:09.200 --> 20:14.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% how could we help? Picking fights with allies, trying to blame Europe just in the last 20:16.333 --> 20:19.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% couple days for prolonging the war in Ukraine, tariffs on our allies, talking about, you know, 20:21.600 --> 20:25.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% invading Canada. He's picking fights with our allies and he's accommodating our enemies. 20:25.500 --> 20:30.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Vivian, talk about India's role in all of this. 20:30.233 --> 20:35.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% It seems as if the Trump administration has fairly significantly alienated a country that 20:38.966 --> 20:43.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% traditional American foreign policy practitioners believe serves as a useful counterweight, 20:46.300 --> 20:49.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% apart from being a democracy useful counterweight to China. Now, Modi seems to have moved himself 20:51.466 --> 20:56.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% into the China-Russia camp. What was the motivation to go and alienate Modi? 20:58.900 --> 21:01.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% VIVIAN SALAMA: I could literally talk about this for three hours. 21:01.566 --> 21:05.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It's good we have a special. We'll do that on the web extra, Vivian on India. 21:05.733 --> 21:10.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% VIVIAN SALAMA : foreign relations perfectly described this meeting as the axis of the 21:10.133 --> 21:14.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% aggrieved and Prime Minister Modi of India is among the aggrieved at this 21:14.400 --> 21:18.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% point because of the fact that, at one point, Donald Trump a few months ago 21:20.866 --> 21:24.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% told the prime minister that he was essentially brokering a ceasefire with Pakistan and India, 21:26.333 --> 21:30.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% archrivals, if folks don't know that at home. And so, the prime minister did not take light 21:32.466 --> 21:36.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% this well. He likes for other countries to stay out of it. And so he proceeded to cozy up to, 21:39.500 --> 21:44.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you know, China and Russia. He continues to buy Russian oil. And suddenly when he 21:44.100 --> 21:49.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% told Donald Trump he didn't want him involved and refused to nominate him for a Nobel Peace Prize, 21:50.900 --> 21:53.300 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% which the Pakistani defense minister proposed, this did not go well. 21:53.300 --> 21:58.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And so, essentially, a rift emerged and Modi has found new friends now in Vladimir Putin and Xi, 22:01.900 --> 22:06.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% which, by the way, is very telling because especially China and India 22:06.633 --> 22:10.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% have been at odds with each other for many years now, and suddenly they are closing up 22:10.800 --> 22:15.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% to each other partially because the prime minister is being pushed into the arms -- 22:17.233 --> 22:18.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And this doesn't sound like 3D chess. 22:18.966 --> 22:21.100 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% ELIZABETH BUMILLER: No. Just what I also want to add, don't forget Trump 22:21.100 --> 22:26.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% also slapped 50 percent tariffs on India. And this was our great economic, you know, friend, 22:28.300 --> 22:31.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% right? It was supposed to be an offset to China. And, you know, India is on its way to becoming a 22:31.500 --> 22:35.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% third largest economy in the world. Right now, it's fifth, but it's going to surpass Japan, 22:35.666 --> 22:39.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% which is fourth, and pretty soon, it's going to be along with the United States and China. 22:39.333 --> 22:44.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, why Trump out of -- seems to be angered about Russian oil also, perhaps because, 22:46.400 --> 22:49.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you know that Indians denied his claim that he had single handedly resolved this conflict 22:49.700 --> 22:54.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% between Pakistan and India, and, again, didn't - - and there was no Nobel Prize nomination. 22:56.700 --> 22:59.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But this -- the 50 percent tariff is devastating to the Indian economy right now, 22:59.300 --> 23:04.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% absolutely devastating. We get -- the United States imports huge amounts of textiles, 23:06.000 --> 23:08.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% jewelry, other things from India. And they're basically -- they have 23:08.933 --> 23:13.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to look for another market now, and that they're closing up to China as a result. 23:13.333 --> 23:15.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% VIVIAN SALAMA: And the very thing that he's slapping tariffs on them 23:15.266 --> 23:18.100 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% for China as well does, but Trump has taken no action against China. 23:18.100 --> 23:20.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I mean, the way things are going, 23:20.133 --> 23:24.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I guess it's a good thing that we now have a Department of War rather than a 23:24.466 --> 23:29.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Department of Defense. I want to talk about that in the couple of minutes we have left. 23:31.733 --> 23:35.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% President Trump has just announced that he's unilaterally renaming the Department of Defense, 23:36.966 --> 23:40.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% which was given that name in 1947, and he's even referring to Pete Hegseth, 23:40.066 --> 23:43.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the secretary of defense, as the secretary of war. 23:43.033 --> 23:48.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Leigh Ann, what's -- is this all made for television drama? What's undergirding this? 23:50.133 --> 23:53.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: Well, a lot of Trump's presidency has been made for television drama. 23:55.666 --> 23:58.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Not only this, but also, you know, the National Guard on the streets in Washington, 23:58.900 --> 24:03.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% D.C. You know, you just go on and on about that. He's a marketing president. He likes 24:07.900 --> 24:11.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to make things in his own image the way he wants them to be. 24:11.733 --> 24:16.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% But I will say that to change the name actually takes an official act from Congress. I would not 24:18.633 --> 24:22.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% be surprised. I haven't checked LegiStorm or congress.gov in the past 30 minutes, 24:24.266 --> 24:27.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but there probably is already in legislation since then to go ahead and do that, 24:27.333 --> 24:30.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because Republicans will follow his lead. 24:30.466 --> 24:35.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But the most poignant response from today was from Senator Mitch McConnell that said, 24:35.033 --> 24:38.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% marketing doesn't matter, you have to put the resources if you want a 24:38.066 --> 24:41.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% lethal fighting force. And he called on the president to actually do that. 24:41.100 --> 24:43.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Vivian, last word to you. The interesting thing here, 24:43.900 --> 24:48.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% one of the interesting things here, is that Trump with a MAGA base has promised no wars. 24:50.933 --> 24:55.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% This seems like a bellicose move for someone who wants to disengage from the world. 24:57.733 --> 25:00.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% VIVIAN SALAMA: Indeed. And I have no explanation for it other than the fact that he 25:00.500 --> 25:05.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% does like a good show, also sending a message to adversaries as well, whether or not that works. 25:06.966 --> 25:08.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: What's the message going to adversaries? 25:08.900 --> 25:12.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% VIVIAN SALAMA: That we are ready if you push us. We don't want to start wars, 25:13.533 --> 25:15.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but, you know, in Trump's words, we would finish it. 25:15.633 --> 25:18.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I would note only that we already have a trillion dollar defense 25:18.400 --> 25:21.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% budget and we have the greatest military in the history of the planet, but -- 25:21.333 --> 25:23.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% VIVIAN SALAMA: Details, details. 25:23.066 --> 25:24.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- we'll talk about that in, 25:24.700 --> 25:27.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in, in a coming show, but we are going to have to leave it there, 25:27.733 --> 25:32.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I'm sorry to say. I want to thank our guests for joining me and thank you at home for watching us. 25:34.800 --> 25:37.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% To read Tom Nichols' piece on why America's adversaries are sidelining the president, 25:37.266 --> 25:39.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% please visit theatlantic.com. 25:39.433 --> 25:42.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm Jeffrey Goldberg. Goodnight from Washington.