1 00:00:02,033 --> 00:00:05,133 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It was, in one sense, a tough week for RFK Jr. who was bludgeoned 2 00:00:07,133 --> 00:00:09,266 in the Senate for his management of the Centers for Disease Control and for his 3 00:00:09,266 --> 00:00:13,900 views on vaccines. But he fought back and continues to carry out his revolutionary 4 00:00:13,900 --> 00:00:18,533 agenda with speed, enthusiasm, and with the apparent support of his boss. 5 00:00:18,533 --> 00:00:20,566 And halfway around the world, 6 00:00:20,566 --> 00:00:24,300 America's adversaries gathered in Beijing in a show of force that highlighted their 7 00:00:24,300 --> 00:00:29,300 strengthening alliance and their growing contempt for the United States, next. 8 00:01:34,466 --> 00:01:37,333 Good evening and welcome to Washington Week. 9 00:01:37,333 --> 00:01:42,333 Scientists have endorsed the efficacy of vaccines for quite literally hundreds of years. It's always 10 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,866 worth noting that George Washington and himself had his troops vaccinated for smallpox. So, 11 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,233 naturally, in the year 2025, the secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., 12 00:01:53,233 --> 00:01:58,200 spent a day debating vaccination with various senators of both parties. He also spent a good 13 00:02:00,233 --> 00:02:02,366 deal of time answering questions about his management of the agencies responsible for 14 00:02:02,366 --> 00:02:07,100 protecting the nation's health, including and especially the Centers for Disease Control. 15 00:02:07,100 --> 00:02:12,066 In normal times, these extraordinary arguments would be the only news we'd be talking about, 16 00:02:12,066 --> 00:02:14,366 but this is also the week we saw China, Russia, 17 00:02:14,366 --> 00:02:19,300 and America's now possibly former quasi ally, India, create a tacit alliance against Trump. 18 00:02:21,633 --> 00:02:26,333 Joining me tonight at the table to discuss all of this, Elizabeth Bumiller, a writer at large 19 00:02:28,533 --> 00:02:31,400 at The New York Times, Leigh Ann Caldwell is the chief Washington correspondent for Puck, 20 00:02:33,666 --> 00:02:36,833 Stephen Hayes is the editor of The Dispatch, and Vivian Salama is a staff writer at The Atlantic. 21 00:02:38,633 --> 00:02:41,266 Thank you all for joining me. I appreciate it. 22 00:02:41,266 --> 00:02:45,333 Let me start with a very basic question, just to level set. Elizabeth, 23 00:02:45,333 --> 00:02:50,333 what is RFK's unvarnished view of vaccines? How much of an extreme view does he actually have? 24 00:02:53,333 --> 00:02:55,466 ELIZABETH BUMILLER, Writer at Large, The New York Times: Well, he has one of the 25 00:02:55,466 --> 00:02:59,233 most extreme public views in the country, I would say, among an official. It's a little 26 00:03:01,300 --> 00:03:03,900 hard to know exactly where he is because he said in his confirmation hearings that 27 00:03:03,900 --> 00:03:08,900 he was not going to stand in the way of people having access to vaccines, the COVID vaccine. 28 00:03:09,666 --> 00:03:12,000 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes. 29 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,300 ELIZABETH BUMILLER: However, that exactly where he is right now, and it caused the huge disturbance 30 00:03:14,300 --> 00:03:18,900 and huge shouting at the hearing this week, where he basically said that the vaccine had killed more 31 00:03:22,233 --> 00:03:27,233 people than it saved, he said very strange things. He -- you know, he said that the head of the CDC 32 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:36,600 who he had fired had said she was -- she couldn't be trusted, and senators said, but you're lying. 33 00:03:39,033 --> 00:03:43,333 So, you know, we know, for example, that he has been vaccinated. We know 34 00:03:43,333 --> 00:03:48,333 his children have been vaccinated, but yet he doesn't seem to want the rest of the country, 35 00:03:50,466 --> 00:03:53,400 or at least most people in this country to be vaccinated. And it's caused it to -- you know, 36 00:03:55,533 --> 00:03:57,533 right now we're seeing, you know, states now are, like in New York and Massachusetts, 37 00:03:57,533 --> 00:04:00,500 are saying we're going to be giving the vaccine to everybody who wants 38 00:04:00,500 --> 00:04:05,466 it. But it's caused a big mess nationally as the, you know, COVID season is upon us. 39 00:04:07,733 --> 00:04:12,500 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Steve, how popular is this, as a position among the Republican base? 40 00:04:14,566 --> 00:04:16,733 STEPHEN HAYES, Editor, The Dispatch: More popular than it was ten years ago. I think 41 00:04:16,733 --> 00:04:21,400 the reason that RFK Jr. has the position he has is because he has decades of experience 42 00:04:23,433 --> 00:04:26,300 being anti-vaccine. This is what gave him a follow and gave him a constituency and 43 00:04:26,300 --> 00:04:31,300 ultimately led to this deal with RFK Jr. and Donald Trump. It's why he is where he is today. 44 00:04:33,100 --> 00:04:36,133 There's polling that shows Republicans, and this is increasingly partisan, 45 00:04:36,133 --> 00:04:38,500 of course, polarized, because everything is, 46 00:04:38,500 --> 00:04:43,400 shows Republicans are increasingly skeptical of vaccines as these arguments are made public. 47 00:04:44,733 --> 00:04:46,566 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: More than just the COVID vaccine? 48 00:04:46,566 --> 00:04:48,866 STEPHEN HAYES: More than just the COVID vaccine. Yes, we saw Ron DeSantis, 49 00:04:48,866 --> 00:04:53,633 we saw a movement in Florida this week to end the mandates for vaccines for kids in schools. 50 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,200 I think there's growing skepticism among Republicans, but not as much as you might 51 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,800 think. I mean, still three quarters of Republicans, according to most polling, 52 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:07,800 support widespread vaccines. So, the skepticism that we've seen hasn't 53 00:05:09,566 --> 00:05:11,966 gotten to the point where Republicans are running away from all vaccines. 54 00:05:11,966 --> 00:05:16,800 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Leigh Ann, let me ask you this question. Tell them, 55 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:21,800 I'll call them back. This is the strange thing to me. Arguably, 56 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:30,200 the greatest achievement of Donald Trump's first term was Operation Warp Speed, 57 00:05:32,266 --> 00:05:35,700 which brought about the vaccines that allowed us to exit the pandemic. What interest does 58 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:43,400 Trump have here in putting forward RFK and his rather radical views of vaccines? 59 00:05:46,333 --> 00:05:48,800 LEIGH ANN CALDWELL, Chief Washington Correspondent, Puck: Yes, it's really 60 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,100 complicated for Donald Trump. As Stephen said, RFK Jr. is a big reason why Donald Trump was elected, 61 00:05:54,166 --> 00:05:58,500 this coalition of the MAHA-MAGA base really propelled him to win this election. But then 62 00:06:00,933 --> 00:06:05,933 he has this major success with Operation Warp Speed, which it was reported this week that 63 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:12,100 Donald Trump has privately told supporters that he wishes he could talk about it more. 64 00:06:14,333 --> 00:06:16,533 And you're also seeing a little bit of angst and anxiety from the president when he speaks about 65 00:06:16,533 --> 00:06:21,533 things publicly. He had a Truth Social this week where he said, what is happening at the CDC? If 66 00:06:24,066 --> 00:06:29,033 what -- if these vaccines are good, these pharmaceutical companies need to come forward and 67 00:06:29,033 --> 00:06:34,033 show us. They're not telling the American public that things are safe. And then also just tonight, 68 00:06:36,066 --> 00:06:39,666 he was asked by reporters in the Oval about the Florida mandate, about stripping the 69 00:06:39,666 --> 00:06:44,066 mandate for vaccines in schools. And he said that that could actually be quite problematic 70 00:06:44,066 --> 00:06:49,066 because some vaccines are actually quite helpful. He pointed to polio specifically. 71 00:06:50,733 --> 00:06:55,000 But with all that said, while Trump seems to be torn, RFK Jr.'s job does 72 00:06:56,500 --> 00:06:58,466 not seem to be in jeopardy by any stretch of the imagination. 73 00:06:58,466 --> 00:07:01,033 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want to come back to that question and then, but let's talk 74 00:07:01,033 --> 00:07:05,200 about the Senate hearings. I want you all to watch the -- one of the 75 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:10,200 many heated exchanges between a Democratic senator and RFK. 76 00:07:12,266 --> 00:07:16,000 SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): Do you accept the fact that a million Americans died from COVID? 77 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,666 ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HHS Secretary: I don't know how many died. 78 00:07:19,666 --> 00:07:23,033 MARK WANRER: You are the secretary of Health and Human Services. You don't 79 00:07:23,033 --> 00:07:26,366 have any idea how many Americans died from COVID? 80 00:07:26,366 --> 00:07:30,633 ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: I don't think anybody knows that because there was 81 00:07:30,633 --> 00:07:35,266 so much data chaos coming out of the CDC, and there was -- 82 00:07:35,266 --> 00:07:37,666 (CROSSTALKS) 83 00:07:37,666 --> 00:07:41,400 MARK WARNER: You don't know the answer of how many Americans from COVID? This is the secretary 84 00:07:43,733 --> 00:07:47,400 of Health and Human Services. Do you think the vaccine did anything to prevent additional deaths? 85 00:07:49,500 --> 00:07:53,933 ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Again, I would like to see the data and talk about the data. I'm not -- 86 00:07:55,666 --> 00:07:56,966 MARK WARNER: You had this job for eight months and you don't know 87 00:07:56,966 --> 00:07:59,566 the data about whether the vaccine saved lives? 88 00:07:59,566 --> 00:08:01,933 ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: And that's the problem, 89 00:08:01,933 --> 00:08:05,466 is that they didn't have the data. The data by the Biden administration, absolutely dismal. 90 00:08:06,533 --> 00:08:08,100 (CROSSTALKS) 91 00:08:08,100 --> 00:08:11,866 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Vivian, how would you grade his performance? 92 00:08:11,866 --> 00:08:13,866 VIVIAN SALAMA, Staff Writer, The Atlantic: It is exactly what -- I mean, 93 00:08:13,866 --> 00:08:17,433 I'm not going to give him a grade, but I say it wasn't surprising that this, 94 00:08:17,433 --> 00:08:22,433 these were his answers because he has repeatedly justified the massive cuts to the Health and Human 95 00:08:24,533 --> 00:08:28,333 Services Department because of claims like this that he says the data was not reliable, 96 00:08:30,700 --> 00:08:33,866 the people who were compiling the data were not reliable or qualified enough to do so. And so this 97 00:08:37,266 --> 00:08:42,266 is something that we heard repeatedly on Thursday while he was testifying, is that the data was not 98 00:08:44,466 --> 00:08:47,300 reliable. You don't know how many people died of COVID because none of the data was reliable, 99 00:08:49,566 --> 00:08:52,833 but also the people who were running the CDC and HHS were not qualified people. He even called the 100 00:08:55,266 --> 00:09:00,300 now former CDC director a liar at some points because she claimed, and she wrote in The Wall 101 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,733 Street Journal in an editorial that she was being pushed to empower the views of recommendations 102 00:09:09,433 --> 00:09:14,433 of anti-vaxxers. And this essentially politicized the department. This was a problem that they saw. 103 00:09:16,366 --> 00:09:20,833 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Steve, is this -- does he have any foundation to stand on when 104 00:09:22,633 --> 00:09:25,166 he talks about the unreliability of the data, are we just an Alice in Wonderland? 105 00:09:25,166 --> 00:09:27,300 STEPHEN HAYES: Well, look, I mean, I think you can say, you know, 106 00:09:27,300 --> 00:09:32,100 was it 1.2? Was it 1.24? Of course, we don't know probably to the exact person. But, 107 00:09:33,866 --> 00:09:38,400 no, I mean, this is well established. It's on the CDC and the HHS websites, 108 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:42,866 the government's estimates of how many people died, and the effectiveness of vaccines. 109 00:09:42,866 --> 00:09:47,600 Now, this is something that RFK Jr. does all the time. He did it in his pre government life 110 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:52,066 as he's making the case against vaccines, is he pretends that there's no data. You know, 111 00:09:52,066 --> 00:09:57,066 there could be dozens of peer reviews, study peer-reviewed studies on topic X 112 00:09:58,833 --> 00:10:01,000 and he would say, well, we really don't know. We need to wait for the data. 113 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:05,466 The data is often there. He just doesn't want to accept it. And he uses this. He sort of injects 114 00:10:07,833 --> 00:10:11,166 confusion into the debate, I think, to muddy the waters about the efficacy of things like vaccines. 115 00:10:11,166 --> 00:10:13,500 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Elizabeth, Vivian wouldn't give him a grade, 116 00:10:13,500 --> 00:10:18,500 but maybe you will, not a grade. Don't give a grade. Just it seemed like he was very 117 00:10:21,033 --> 00:10:24,666 I think the word would be lippy with the Democratic senators. 118 00:10:24,666 --> 00:10:26,400 ELIZABETH BUMILLER: Yes, he was. 119 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:28,800 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That plays well, I guess, among MAGA people, 120 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:33,500 people who don't like the Democrats. It does seem like a bit of a distraction 121 00:10:33,500 --> 00:10:38,500 for Trump who has other things that he cares about more than vaccine fighting. 122 00:10:40,566 --> 00:10:43,233 ELIZABETH BUMILLER: Well, that's what's so interesting. Trump has not come out and given 123 00:10:43,233 --> 00:10:48,200 him a big defense at all. You know, he says -- he hasn't said he is doing a great job. He did a 124 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,533 great job in the hearing. He's been very silent, notably. And that's not that's interesting. 125 00:10:53,533 --> 00:10:58,500 And as we talked about before, you know, Operation Warp speed was one of, you know, a triumph of 126 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,233 the Trump administration and also the Biden administration later. But, you know, here, he has 127 00:11:03,233 --> 00:11:07,833 this -- yes, he's very pleased to have a Kennedy in this cabinet. You know, he had a Democrat in 128 00:11:07,833 --> 00:11:12,833 his cabinet, a big name like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. He -- but this was not a good performance. I think 129 00:11:15,433 --> 00:11:20,433 Trump was very into television. I can't believe he watched this and thought this was good for him. 130 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,166 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Is that what this is about, having a Kennedy in the cabinet? 131 00:11:24,166 --> 00:11:26,166 VIVIAN SALAMA: There's a lot of that, and Trump has not made a secret of 132 00:11:26,166 --> 00:11:29,666 that. He's repeatedly said that he loves having a Kennedy, but it has to be said. 133 00:11:29,666 --> 00:11:33,900 And just to echo Elizabeth, it's very interesting to see that Trump has allowed him to sort of 134 00:11:33,900 --> 00:11:38,700 carve out a piece of the pie. Trump has really owned the MAGA movement, but this MAHA movement, 135 00:11:38,700 --> 00:11:43,466 Make America Healthy Again, that now is really owned by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., 136 00:11:43,466 --> 00:11:47,700 is something that has gotten Trump's blessing, but he's sort of telling him, you do you, 137 00:11:47,700 --> 00:11:52,566 you do your own thing, we'll stay over here as MAGA people. And he allows him to kind 138 00:11:52,566 --> 00:11:57,366 of operate adjacent but separate from what MAGA is doing, and that is really telling. 139 00:11:57,366 --> 00:12:02,333 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Leigh Ann, I want to show the panel Senator Barrasso, 140 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,800 the number two Republican in the Senate. This is not Mark Warner, a Democrat, 141 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,833 talking about MAHA or talking about the having a fight over vaccines. This is a very high ranking 142 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:20,200 Republican who also happens to be a physician. Let's just listen to him for one minute. 143 00:12:21,700 --> 00:12:24,133 SEN. JOHN BARRASSO (R-WY): In your confirmation hearings, 144 00:12:24,133 --> 00:12:27,066 you promised to uphold the highest standards for vaccines. Since then, I've grown deeply concerned. 145 00:12:28,966 --> 00:12:32,133 The public has seen measles outbreaks, leadership of the National Institute of 146 00:12:32,133 --> 00:12:37,133 Health questioning the use of mRNA vaccines, the recently confirmed director of Centers for 147 00:12:39,033 --> 00:12:42,500 Disease Control and Prevention fired. Americans don't know who to rely on. 148 00:12:44,633 --> 00:12:47,866 If we're going to make America healthy again, we can't allow public health to be undermined. 149 00:12:49,833 --> 00:12:54,800 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Does this put RFK Jr.'s position in danger? 150 00:12:57,033 --> 00:12:59,633 LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: I don't think so. I think that this hearing was an opportunity for these 151 00:12:59,633 --> 00:13:04,600 senators to express their concerns and their discontent with RFK Jr., especially, you know, 152 00:13:06,433 --> 00:13:09,933 Barrasso is a doctor, so he needed to be on the record for that. And perhaps 153 00:13:12,300 --> 00:13:15,533 he's having private conversations with the Trump administration or with the president about RFK Jr. 154 00:13:17,700 --> 00:13:21,533 But I don't think that this is going to be the thing right now yet that senators are going to go 155 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:28,266 to bat for to break with the present and to really pressure him to get rid of his HHS Secretary. 156 00:13:30,333 --> 00:13:33,600 One thing that is going to be important to watch is that, which Barrasso said in his 157 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:38,600 hearing is in a couple weeks, the CDC Advisory - - Vaccine Advisory Board is going to meet about 158 00:13:40,766 --> 00:13:44,233 children vaccines, and there's going to be a lot of senators who are going to pay a lot of 159 00:13:44,233 --> 00:13:49,233 attention to that. But RFK Jr., like I said, I don't think his job's in jeopardy right now. 160 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,100 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Let's talk about the CDC for a minute on not the political 161 00:13:53,100 --> 00:13:58,033 level but the actual practical level. Many, many people fired across divisions, 162 00:14:01,333 --> 00:14:06,333 many people who have quit in disgust or in protest. Give us a sense of the CDC and its, 163 00:14:10,466 --> 00:14:15,466 to borrow a term, efficacy as the world's leading preventer of disease. 164 00:14:17,500 --> 00:14:21,533 ELIZABETH BUMILLER: Well, it's in shambles right now. There's -- all the experts, 165 00:14:23,733 --> 00:14:26,900 all the four or five top scientists have left. The secretary of Health and Human Services has 166 00:14:29,833 --> 00:14:33,900 just completely undermined it to large portion of the American public by saying it can't be 167 00:14:33,900 --> 00:14:38,900 trusted. It's corrupt. Those words matter to a lot of people in the United States. 168 00:14:41,033 --> 00:14:44,333 And so it is -- we are in -- you know, I have heard so many health experts say in the last 169 00:14:46,433 --> 00:14:50,000 couple weeks, we are in terrible trouble in the United States in terms of our public health. 170 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:55,000 They say this is the worst situation they've seen in a hundred years. On top of RFK Jr., 171 00:14:57,066 --> 00:15:00,766 you know, pulling half a billion dollars for mRNA research, which is not just about vaccines, 172 00:15:02,866 --> 00:15:06,200 it's about fighting a lot of other diseases, that's been stopped. And then he is also, 173 00:15:08,533 --> 00:15:11,400 you know, questioning the efficacy of the measles vaccine, which -- so this is a dangerous time. 174 00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:14,933 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Steve, 175 00:15:14,933 --> 00:15:18,433 is this a bill that's just going to come due in some terrible way? 176 00:15:18,433 --> 00:15:20,866 STEPHEN HAYES: I mean, it's hard to imagine that it isn't. I mean, 177 00:15:20,866 --> 00:15:25,200 I think some of it is what negative consequences are we likely to see from this. I think the CDC is 178 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:29,433 much less effective today than it was eight months ago because of the departures that 179 00:15:29,433 --> 00:15:34,400 we've seen. More than 2,000 people have either been fired or have left on their own accord. 180 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:39,100 The other question is, what progress aren't we making? Elizabeth mentions the, it was 181 00:15:39,100 --> 00:15:44,100 $500 million in mRNA research that was pulled back in August. That was funding 182 00:15:45,566 --> 00:15:50,433 research and very promising research into cancer. MRNA, 183 00:15:52,500 --> 00:15:55,833 one of the benefits of it is it's quick and it's adaptive. So, you can make progress 184 00:15:55,833 --> 00:15:59,733 quickly. This is one of the reasons that the COVID vaccine was as successful as it was. 185 00:15:59,733 --> 00:16:04,066 You can make progress very quickly to fight any of a number of things. We're not doing the 186 00:16:04,066 --> 00:16:09,066 research that we once were doing. So, what progress are we not making at this point? 187 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,000 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. 188 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,466 LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: And I also think that what could happen is we're going to have red states 189 00:16:14,466 --> 00:16:19,000 and blue states with completely different vaccine policies. As we've talked about already tonight, 190 00:16:21,233 --> 00:16:25,066 Florida is the first state to move forward with stopping the requirement of vaccines in schools. 191 00:16:27,033 --> 00:16:30,833 You have Washington, Oregon, and California who are coalescing around what they say is 192 00:16:33,166 --> 00:16:36,333 science and going to move forward and continue to study and offer vaccines. But diseases also don't 193 00:16:40,933 --> 00:16:45,933 adhere to state lines. And so this is a broader public health issue. But, again, it's going to be 194 00:16:47,966 --> 00:16:51,200 completely more -- another thing that divides this country into what state you live in. 195 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:56,200 VIVIAN SALAMA: And when that happens, you erode the public's trust in public health. I mean, 196 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,300 and that's the big issue here. Do I get my child vaccinated? Will my elderly relative 197 00:17:03,466 --> 00:17:06,333 have access to chronic disease care? All of these things now could be thrown into jeopardy, 198 00:17:07,566 --> 00:17:10,400 just even to trust that you know what to do or 199 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,133 who to believe. That's what experts are saying could really take a hit the most. 200 00:17:14,133 --> 00:17:17,100 STEPHEN HAYES: And I have to say, I mean, some of that is earned, right? I mean, 201 00:17:17,100 --> 00:17:21,900 if you look back on COVID, some of the things that we heard from public health experts who we 202 00:17:21,900 --> 00:17:26,866 were told to trust, they didn't adapt to new data. They did say things that were untrue, 203 00:17:26,866 --> 00:17:31,866 including Anthony Fauci early, about the efficacy of masks because he wanted to preserve PPE. So, 204 00:17:33,966 --> 00:17:37,000 some of that I think is earned. And certainly among the right, there's this growing skepticism. 205 00:17:38,466 --> 00:17:41,833 But it's also the case, I think, that this is the goal of RFK Jr. 206 00:17:41,833 --> 00:17:46,533 here. He wants to sow this mistrust because he doesn't trust them himself. 207 00:17:46,533 --> 00:17:51,533 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: But what is -- this is an impossible question probably to answer, but what 208 00:17:53,833 --> 00:17:56,666 is his vision of a future in which we don't have a CDC or an FDA or an effective NIH? We're all 209 00:18:02,066 --> 00:18:07,066 going to get healthy because we're not eating food dies anymore? I ask this seriously. What's the -- 210 00:18:09,166 --> 00:18:13,033 STEPHEN HAYES: He says we were lied to by everybody about everything during COVID. Now, 211 00:18:13,033 --> 00:18:16,066 that's, of course, not true, but he doesn't trust any of those people. So, 212 00:18:16,066 --> 00:18:18,466 I think to answer your question directly, 213 00:18:18,466 --> 00:18:21,733 he would think it's a better world if we don't have to listen to the experts who occupy those -- 214 00:18:21,733 --> 00:18:24,000 VIVIAN SALAMA: He's aiming to reinvent it. 215 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,800 STEPHEN HAYES: Absolutely, he wants to remake American healthcare, American public health. 216 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:28,800 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Obviously a subject we'll come back to. 217 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:33,800 I want to pivot though to these meetings among China, North Korea, Russia, 218 00:18:35,900 --> 00:18:40,900 and China in particular this week feels pretty good about itself. Russia obviously 219 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:47,800 feels pretty good about itself. It got out of the pressure that came out from 220 00:18:49,833 --> 00:18:54,200 under the pressure Trump was putting on to come bring an end to the war in Ukraine. 221 00:18:56,466 --> 00:18:59,866 I want to read something that Tom Nichols wrote in The Atlantic yesterday. The leaders of Russia, 222 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,333 China, and North Korea are not good men. They preside over brutal autocracies, 223 00:19:05,333 --> 00:19:07,466 replete with secret police and prison camps, 224 00:19:07,466 --> 00:19:12,066 but they are nevertheless serious men, and they know an unserious man when they see one. 225 00:19:12,066 --> 00:19:15,666 For nearly a decade, they have taken Donald Trump's measure and they've clearly reached 226 00:19:15,666 --> 00:19:20,666 a conclusion, the president of the United States is not worthy of their respect. 227 00:19:22,733 --> 00:19:26,433 Steve, that's rough stuff, but it's true that Putin didn't end the war because Trump 228 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:33,300 came back into power and that China certainly doesn't seem intimidated by the United States. 229 00:19:35,700 --> 00:19:36,966 STEPHEN HAYES: Right. 230 00:19:36,966 --> 00:19:39,133 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Give us your analysis. 231 00:19:39,133 --> 00:19:41,866 STEPHEN HAYES: Well, if you look at this gathering earlier this week, you had America's 232 00:19:43,966 --> 00:19:47,066 foremost adversaries declaring that their goal was to bring an end to the rules-based post-war 233 00:19:49,733 --> 00:19:54,000 international order driven by the United States - - created and driven by the United States 234 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:59,000 for our own benefit. And it's as if the Trump administration of the United States is looking 235 00:20:01,166 --> 00:20:04,433 at them doing this. I mean, Vladimir Putin said that directly. The Trump administration 236 00:20:06,466 --> 00:20:09,200 is looking at him doing this and saying, in effect, maybe not intent, but, in fact, 237 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:14,200 how could we help? Picking fights with allies, trying to blame Europe just in the last 238 00:20:16,333 --> 00:20:19,533 couple days for prolonging the war in Ukraine, tariffs on our allies, talking about, you know, 239 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,500 invading Canada. He's picking fights with our allies and he's accommodating our enemies. 240 00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:30,233 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Vivian, talk about India's role in all of this. 241 00:20:30,233 --> 00:20:35,233 It seems as if the Trump administration has fairly significantly alienated a country that 242 00:20:38,966 --> 00:20:43,933 traditional American foreign policy practitioners believe serves as a useful counterweight, 243 00:20:46,300 --> 00:20:49,400 apart from being a democracy useful counterweight to China. Now, Modi seems to have moved himself 244 00:20:51,466 --> 00:20:56,433 into the China-Russia camp. What was the motivation to go and alienate Modi? 245 00:20:58,900 --> 00:21:01,566 VIVIAN SALAMA: I could literally talk about this for three hours. 246 00:21:01,566 --> 00:21:05,733 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It's good we have a special. We'll do that on the web extra, Vivian on India. 247 00:21:05,733 --> 00:21:10,133 VIVIAN SALAMA : foreign relations perfectly described this meeting as the axis of the 248 00:21:10,133 --> 00:21:14,400 aggrieved and Prime Minister Modi of India is among the aggrieved at this 249 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,700 point because of the fact that, at one point, Donald Trump a few months ago 250 00:21:20,866 --> 00:21:24,266 told the prime minister that he was essentially brokering a ceasefire with Pakistan and India, 251 00:21:26,333 --> 00:21:30,333 archrivals, if folks don't know that at home. And so, the prime minister did not take light 252 00:21:32,466 --> 00:21:36,100 this well. He likes for other countries to stay out of it. And so he proceeded to cozy up to, 253 00:21:39,500 --> 00:21:44,100 you know, China and Russia. He continues to buy Russian oil. And suddenly when he 254 00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:49,066 told Donald Trump he didn't want him involved and refused to nominate him for a Nobel Peace Prize, 255 00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:53,300 which the Pakistani defense minister proposed, this did not go well. 256 00:21:53,300 --> 00:21:58,200 And so, essentially, a rift emerged and Modi has found new friends now in Vladimir Putin and Xi, 257 00:22:01,900 --> 00:22:06,633 which, by the way, is very telling because especially China and India 258 00:22:06,633 --> 00:22:10,800 have been at odds with each other for many years now, and suddenly they are closing up 259 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,800 to each other partially because the prime minister is being pushed into the arms -- 260 00:22:17,233 --> 00:22:18,966 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And this doesn't sound like 3D chess. 261 00:22:18,966 --> 00:22:21,100 ELIZABETH BUMILLER: No. Just what I also want to add, don't forget Trump 262 00:22:21,100 --> 00:22:26,033 also slapped 50 percent tariffs on India. And this was our great economic, you know, friend, 263 00:22:28,300 --> 00:22:31,500 right? It was supposed to be an offset to China. And, you know, India is on its way to becoming a 264 00:22:31,500 --> 00:22:35,666 third largest economy in the world. Right now, it's fifth, but it's going to surpass Japan, 265 00:22:35,666 --> 00:22:39,333 which is fourth, and pretty soon, it's going to be along with the United States and China. 266 00:22:39,333 --> 00:22:44,333 So, why Trump out of -- seems to be angered about Russian oil also, perhaps because, 267 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,700 you know that Indians denied his claim that he had single handedly resolved this conflict 268 00:22:49,700 --> 00:22:54,666 between Pakistan and India, and, again, didn't - - and there was no Nobel Prize nomination. 269 00:22:56,700 --> 00:22:59,300 But this -- the 50 percent tariff is devastating to the Indian economy right now, 270 00:22:59,300 --> 00:23:04,266 absolutely devastating. We get -- the United States imports huge amounts of textiles, 271 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,933 jewelry, other things from India. And they're basically -- they have 272 00:23:08,933 --> 00:23:13,333 to look for another market now, and that they're closing up to China as a result. 273 00:23:13,333 --> 00:23:15,266 VIVIAN SALAMA: And the very thing that he's slapping tariffs on them 274 00:23:15,266 --> 00:23:18,100 for China as well does, but Trump has taken no action against China. 275 00:23:18,100 --> 00:23:20,133 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I mean, the way things are going, 276 00:23:20,133 --> 00:23:24,466 I guess it's a good thing that we now have a Department of War rather than a 277 00:23:24,466 --> 00:23:29,466 Department of Defense. I want to talk about that in the couple of minutes we have left. 278 00:23:31,733 --> 00:23:35,066 President Trump has just announced that he's unilaterally renaming the Department of Defense, 279 00:23:36,966 --> 00:23:40,066 which was given that name in 1947, and he's even referring to Pete Hegseth, 280 00:23:40,066 --> 00:23:43,033 the secretary of defense, as the secretary of war. 281 00:23:43,033 --> 00:23:48,033 Leigh Ann, what's -- is this all made for television drama? What's undergirding this? 282 00:23:50,133 --> 00:23:53,600 LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: Well, a lot of Trump's presidency has been made for television drama. 283 00:23:55,666 --> 00:23:58,900 Not only this, but also, you know, the National Guard on the streets in Washington, 284 00:23:58,900 --> 00:24:03,866 D.C. You know, you just go on and on about that. He's a marketing president. He likes 285 00:24:07,900 --> 00:24:11,733 to make things in his own image the way he wants them to be. 286 00:24:11,733 --> 00:24:16,733 But I will say that to change the name actually takes an official act from Congress. I would not 287 00:24:18,633 --> 00:24:22,333 be surprised. I haven't checked LegiStorm or congress.gov in the past 30 minutes, 288 00:24:24,266 --> 00:24:27,333 but there probably is already in legislation since then to go ahead and do that, 289 00:24:27,333 --> 00:24:30,466 because Republicans will follow his lead. 290 00:24:30,466 --> 00:24:35,033 But the most poignant response from today was from Senator Mitch McConnell that said, 291 00:24:35,033 --> 00:24:38,066 marketing doesn't matter, you have to put the resources if you want a 292 00:24:38,066 --> 00:24:41,100 lethal fighting force. And he called on the president to actually do that. 293 00:24:41,100 --> 00:24:43,900 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Vivian, last word to you. The interesting thing here, 294 00:24:43,900 --> 00:24:48,900 one of the interesting things here, is that Trump with a MAGA base has promised no wars. 295 00:24:50,933 --> 00:24:55,700 This seems like a bellicose move for someone who wants to disengage from the world. 296 00:24:57,733 --> 00:25:00,500 VIVIAN SALAMA: Indeed. And I have no explanation for it other than the fact that he 297 00:25:00,500 --> 00:25:05,466 does like a good show, also sending a message to adversaries as well, whether or not that works. 298 00:25:06,966 --> 00:25:08,900 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: What's the message going to adversaries? 299 00:25:08,900 --> 00:25:12,133 VIVIAN SALAMA: That we are ready if you push us. We don't want to start wars, 300 00:25:13,533 --> 00:25:15,633 but, you know, in Trump's words, we would finish it. 301 00:25:15,633 --> 00:25:18,400 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I would note only that we already have a trillion dollar defense 302 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,333 budget and we have the greatest military in the history of the planet, but -- 303 00:25:21,333 --> 00:25:23,066 VIVIAN SALAMA: Details, details. 304 00:25:23,066 --> 00:25:24,700 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- we'll talk about that in, 305 00:25:24,700 --> 00:25:27,733 in, in a coming show, but we are going to have to leave it there, 306 00:25:27,733 --> 00:25:32,733 I'm sorry to say. I want to thank our guests for joining me and thank you at home for watching us. 307 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,266 To read Tom Nichols' piece on why America's adversaries are sidelining the president, 308 00:25:37,266 --> 00:25:39,433 please visit theatlantic.com. 309 00:25:39,433 --> 00:25:42,700 I'm Jeffrey Goldberg. Goodnight from Washington.