1 00:00:02,100 --> 00:00:04,666 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Good evening and welcome to Washington Week, and welcome to just another week 2 00:00:04,666 --> 00:00:09,666 in Donald Trump's Washington. People throw around the term constitutional crisis all the time, 3 00:00:11,566 --> 00:00:14,600 and I include myself in the category of people here, but what does it actually 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:19,200 mean? Would it be a constitutional crisis if the president defies a federal judge's order on 5 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:24,200 the detention of immigrants? Are we already in such a crisis? I have many questions. Luckily, 6 00:00:26,033 --> 00:00:29,933 I also have very smart people at this table to help us understand these issues. 7 00:00:29,933 --> 00:00:34,933 Joining me tonight, Eugene Daniels is a senior Washington correspondent and co-host of The 8 00:00:37,033 --> 00:00:40,000 Weekend on MSNBC. David Ignatius is a columnist at The Washington Post. Michael Scherer is my 9 00:00:42,500 --> 00:00:47,133 colleague and a staff writer at The Atlantic. And Nancy Youssef is a national security correspondent 10 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,133 at The Wall Street Journal. Thank you all for joining me, another no news week in Washington. 11 00:00:55,266 --> 00:00:59,866 Let me go right to it, David. This is going to feel like a homework assignment, but what's 12 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,266 the definition of a constitutional crisis? And you cannot use ChatGPT to answer this question. 13 00:01:06,766 --> 00:01:09,166 DAVID IGNATIUS, Columnist, The Washington Post: So, 14 00:01:09,166 --> 00:01:12,333 my definition would be constitutional crisis is when the president defies the Supreme Court. 15 00:01:14,466 --> 00:01:19,033 We're heading in that direction. The president is responding to sharp pushback from the chief 16 00:01:21,033 --> 00:01:25,266 justice by pushing back himself. Right wing Twitter is talking about a judicial coup. 17 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:33,466 This is, you know, increasingly, I think, a dangerous moment. The president has gone 18 00:01:33,466 --> 00:01:38,466 after the. The executive agencies, he's going after congressionally authorized 19 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,666 agencies and programs. He's going after the military, now he's going after the judiciary. 20 00:01:46,833 --> 00:01:50,866 I do think that ahead of us is a confrontation in which the Supreme Court is going to decide what 21 00:01:52,866 --> 00:01:57,833 executive authority the president has. It'll be a landmark case. It's coming. 22 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,000 But until we reach that moment, Jeff, I wouldn't say we're at the constitutional 23 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:08,000 crisis. That's the moment where it will happen and we'll see what the court does. 24 00:02:10,100 --> 00:02:12,400 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Just to illustrate something you're talking about, I want you 25 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,133 to all listen to the president sounding a bit ominous on the subject of judges he doesn't like. 26 00:02:19,166 --> 00:02:22,033 DONALD TRUMP, U.S. President: We have very bad judges, and these are judges 27 00:02:22,033 --> 00:02:25,033 that shouldn't be allowed. I think they -- I think, at a certain point, 28 00:02:25,033 --> 00:02:28,633 you have to start looking at what do you do when you have a rogue judge. 29 00:02:28,633 --> 00:02:33,633 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So, you know, obviously this is -- comments like these are what 30 00:02:35,133 --> 00:02:37,466 prompted the chief justice of the United States, John Roberts, 31 00:02:37,466 --> 00:02:42,266 to mildly rebuke the president and say, you know, you don't -- almost like schoolhouse rock style, 32 00:02:46,900 --> 00:02:51,900 you don't get rid of judges because you disagree with him. That's not the system. 33 00:02:53,433 --> 00:02:55,466 But, you know, David, you said something interesting. You said, 34 00:02:55,466 --> 00:02:59,500 when it goes to the Supreme Court, if he defies the Supreme Court. But, Michael, 35 00:02:59,500 --> 00:03:04,466 we have a situation right now where he seemed to be defying a judge at the district court 36 00:03:06,866 --> 00:03:10,933 level about a live issue. That was the movement of illegal aliens, immigrants, undocumented, alleged 37 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:20,200 gang members, et cetera, out of the country. So, why is that not a constitutional crisis? 38 00:03:22,333 --> 00:03:24,433 MICHAEL SCHERER, Staff Writer, The Atlantic: Well, I would say it's not a constitutional 39 00:03:24,433 --> 00:03:26,800 crisis because that judge is still having hearings. There was another hearing today. 40 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:31,066 There was a hearing yesterday. He could put sanctions on the government next week if he 41 00:03:31,066 --> 00:03:34,033 finds against the president. President could then appeal those sanctions, 42 00:03:34,033 --> 00:03:36,666 and that's how the process works. That's how we roll through. 43 00:03:36,666 --> 00:03:41,666 Now, it's not unheard of that a litigant before a court would defy a judge. What would be unheard of 44 00:03:43,733 --> 00:03:47,700 is if it goes to the end of the road, as David said, especially in a court where, you know, 45 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,066 six of the nine recently ruled in Trump's favor in Trump in the election interference case, and 46 00:03:56,833 --> 00:04:01,800 three of them he appointed. So, if he defies this court, that will be a remarkable moment, I think. 47 00:04:03,933 --> 00:04:07,500 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So, Eugene, you agree that it's not a crisis yet? It's just probing a bit? 48 00:04:11,100 --> 00:04:13,300 EUGENE DANIELS, Senior Washington Correspondent, MSNBC: Not a constitutional crisis. I think a lot 49 00:04:13,300 --> 00:04:17,300 of people would say it is some type of crisis. No, but I think they're right, like we have a 50 00:04:17,300 --> 00:04:22,300 system. And the apex of this, the peak of it is in that crash is when we're at the end of the road, 51 00:04:25,066 --> 00:04:30,066 as Michael was just saying, and we're not there yet. It doesn't appear that they're slowing down, 52 00:04:32,366 --> 00:04:35,433 this White House. They continue to say like, you know, we are going to do what these judges say, 53 00:04:35,433 --> 00:04:39,633 but then you have the president saying these other things, so there're these conflicting messages. 54 00:04:39,633 --> 00:04:43,600 And I think the most important part of this is there are three branches of government, 55 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:48,266 right? They are supposed to be co-equal branches of government. The legislative branch also has a 56 00:04:48,266 --> 00:04:53,033 hand to play. So, if Donald Trump is to, let's say, at the end of the day, defy the Supreme 57 00:04:53,033 --> 00:04:58,033 Court and do what -- does whatever he wants to do, then you have the legislative branch that 58 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,666 is supposed to do something, that Congress should step in and do something as a part of 59 00:05:02,666 --> 00:05:06,900 that. But you have to be co-equal. Everyone has to agree they're co-equal. And at this point, 60 00:05:06,900 --> 00:05:11,100 the Republicans in Congress are just fine with Donald Trump of telling them what to do. 61 00:05:11,100 --> 00:05:14,266 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It doesn't seem like Donald Trump believes that they're co-equal. But, 62 00:05:14,266 --> 00:05:19,266 Nancy -- yes. But, Nancy, so you just made an interesting point about Congress. Maybe this 63 00:05:21,433 --> 00:05:26,400 is not a constitutional collapse. Maybe it's sort of constitutional narcolepsy in a kind of 64 00:05:28,700 --> 00:05:31,433 way. I'm looking for a saying here to see if it catches on. No. Like there's a kind of collapse 65 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,266 here in the sense that Congress -- the judges are doing their thing right now. Congress, Republican 66 00:05:39,666 --> 00:05:44,666 ruled in both houses, Congress doesn't seem to be seized by this issue of defiance or this idea that 67 00:05:49,333 --> 00:05:54,333 judges I don't like, I as the president, don't like, should be impeached. Where's Congress? 68 00:05:56,466 --> 00:05:58,266 NANCY YOUSSEF, National Security Correspondent, The Wall Street Journal: Well, let's start -- 69 00:05:58,266 --> 00:05:59,633 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Don't say at the end of Pennsylvania, by the way. 70 00:05:59,633 --> 00:06:02,300 NANCY YOUSSEF: Oh, then I'm done. I got nothing. 71 00:06:02,300 --> 00:06:06,100 Well, I think it comes back to your original question of what is a constitutional crisis 72 00:06:06,100 --> 00:06:09,800 and the fact that we don't agree on it and that the party doesn't agree and that Congress 73 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:14,800 doesn't agree on it, so therefore there's not a resolution on how to address it. If you believe a 74 00:06:17,033 --> 00:06:19,366 constitutional crisis is when we get to the point where constitutional rights can't guide us to a 75 00:06:19,366 --> 00:06:24,000 resolution of conflict, then I think there's an agreement of sort of congressional intervention. 76 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,333 And having said that, if you agree, if you believe that a judge rules incorrectly, 77 00:06:28,333 --> 00:06:31,800 there's a role for Congress as well. So, to Eugene's point, 78 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:36,800 these ideas of checks and balances they happen throughout. I think the challenges, 79 00:06:38,833 --> 00:06:42,233 because we're seeing a real flood of the zone in terms of some of these challenges, 80 00:06:42,233 --> 00:06:47,233 a disagreement about what defies meets defiance versus testing boundaries. I think how that's 81 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,133 mapping out on the hill is that you're not seeing a uniform response in terms of how to address it. 82 00:06:53,133 --> 00:06:58,133 EUGENE DANIELS: In Congress itself, when Donald Trump defied them and said, 83 00:06:59,933 --> 00:07:01,900 I'm not going to -- you know, DOGE is going to do whatever it wants. And 84 00:07:01,900 --> 00:07:06,900 these organizations that you guys created, we're not going to spend 85 00:07:08,966 --> 00:07:11,200 those monies. We're not going to do that. They don't even care if he does that. So, 86 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:15,766 I don't see them jumping in if he's having beef with judges, I just don't see it happening. 87 00:07:15,766 --> 00:07:18,833 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: David, you've watched this stuff for a while and, 88 00:07:20,900 --> 00:07:24,500 it just -- it struck me that in ordinary times, a chief justice of the United States, 89 00:07:26,166 --> 00:07:31,133 rebuking, or however you want to term what Chief Justice Roberts did, 90 00:07:33,066 --> 00:07:37,000 that would be a momentous story, rebuking the president of the United States for 91 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:42,000 saying things that are out of the bounds of this idea of co-equality among the branches. 92 00:07:45,733 --> 00:07:50,733 How odd is this moment historically? And, B, let's say it goes to the Supreme Court, 93 00:07:54,633 --> 00:07:59,633 let's say the Supreme Court rules against Donald Trump. It's not impossible. Obviously, 94 00:08:01,633 --> 00:08:04,900 people on the right are worried about Amy Coney Barrett and her in independence from 95 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,533 the movement. What would it look like the day -- what would America look like 96 00:08:12,233 --> 00:08:15,133 the day after Trump said, I'm not listening to the Supreme Court? 97 00:08:15,133 --> 00:08:20,133 DAVID IGNATIUS: So, you know, that's a moment that we dread to imagine what authority in the end 98 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:26,533 would the Supreme Court have to enforce its ruling against the president. And in the end, I think 99 00:08:28,866 --> 00:08:33,666 we would have a constitutional crisis. We would have the people, I hope, enraged at the defiance. 100 00:08:35,933 --> 00:08:40,066 I mean, you know, that's a direct assault on the Constitution. Every official of the United States 101 00:08:40,066 --> 00:08:44,533 government swears an oath to the Constitution. They need to be reminded of that. Every member 102 00:08:44,533 --> 00:08:49,533 of Congress surely understands that an attack on the Supreme Court of the United States goes 103 00:08:51,666 --> 00:08:55,200 to the very heart of what our country is, what the founders imagine. You take a look at the 104 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,433 Constitution, it couldn't be clearer, you know? It just enumerates the powers of each branch. 105 00:09:01,300 --> 00:09:04,666 Article 3, talking about the powers of the judiciary couldn't be clearer. 106 00:09:04,666 --> 00:09:09,666 And that's what Trump is going at. All this talk that Trump is encouraging about judges, 107 00:09:12,433 --> 00:09:17,433 you know, issuing orders, blocking things, calling that a judicial coup. When Roberts 108 00:09:19,533 --> 00:09:23,900 questions his authority, he waited a day and then he came right back and attacked Roberts 109 00:09:26,033 --> 00:09:29,933 by name and said, Roberts must immediately, in all caps, fix this or bad things will happen. 110 00:09:32,733 --> 00:09:36,100 MICHAEL SCHERER: There's another way of interpreting what the president's doing right now, 111 00:09:36,100 --> 00:09:40,733 which is he went to the Justice Department last week and told a story about Bobby Knight, 112 00:09:40,733 --> 00:09:44,400 the basketball coach, and how great he was at working the refs. It's clearly in his 113 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:48,600 mind. It's also true that a lot of the things his administration wants to do, 114 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:53,600 it needs the court to change current legal interpretation to do. He needs judges. 115 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,933 Either he's going to go, you know, totally rip up the Constitution and go it alone, 116 00:09:57,933 --> 00:10:01,100 or he's going to do what they've said they're going to do, which is to challenge birthright 117 00:10:01,100 --> 00:10:04,600 citizenship, to challenge the impoundment act, to challenge all these laws that are 118 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,933 on the books right now that are interpreted as legal right now that he doesn't think are legal. 119 00:10:08,933 --> 00:10:13,333 And so I think a way of looking at what this is what he is doing here, and he did it in the first 120 00:10:13,333 --> 00:10:18,333 term, is he's threatening judges. He's saying, look, I'll make your life hard. If you defy me, 121 00:10:20,633 --> 00:10:23,433 I'm going to call you out. I'm going to make everything difficult around you. And he's doing 122 00:10:23,433 --> 00:10:27,966 a Bobby Knight. He's throwing the chair, you know, into the middle of the basketball court. 123 00:10:27,966 --> 00:10:31,033 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Nancy, I don't want to ask you to speculate, 124 00:10:31,033 --> 00:10:36,033 but could you speculate on the likelihood that Donald Trump actually exceeds all of these red 125 00:10:40,633 --> 00:10:45,600 lines based on the first couple of months of this administration. I mean, it seems 126 00:10:47,766 --> 00:10:51,033 implausible to my American brain that such a thing could happen in federal government, but -- 127 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:57,533 NANCY YOUSSEF: Well, I think to my, to the point you just made is because they're not using just 128 00:10:57,533 --> 00:11:02,500 one all. Usually when we've had constitutional and challenges, it's been over one issue. The flooding 129 00:11:02,500 --> 00:11:07,500 of the zone I think is having real impact in that. They might lose on birthright but win on something 130 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,666 else, and so that it allows us to sort of extend itself and go on for extended periods of time. 131 00:11:16,033 --> 00:11:20,900 I think the one thing that sort of gives me hope is once we get to that point of a constitutional 132 00:11:20,900 --> 00:11:25,900 crisis, where it's defiance and it's open, we are saying that the country's ruled by one, 133 00:11:27,900 --> 00:11:30,233 and the spirit of this country, I don't think would allow for that. It's not just 134 00:11:30,233 --> 00:11:34,233 the Constitution, but the very nature of this country has fought against one person ruling to 135 00:11:34,233 --> 00:11:39,233 get to that crisis is one person now ruling, the president. And so that's where I'm optimistic. 136 00:11:40,933 --> 00:11:43,700 And I think, practically speaking, the number of cases that have come 137 00:11:43,700 --> 00:11:48,300 forward is such that I don't think it'll be a straight line. It'll be some cases they win, 138 00:11:48,300 --> 00:11:51,333 some cases they lose, and that in and of itself will affect the timeline. 139 00:11:51,333 --> 00:11:53,433 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes, go ahead. 140 00:11:53,433 --> 00:11:56,033 EUGENE DANIELS: But also, some of this is just about basing the fight, right? So, 141 00:11:56,033 --> 00:11:58,500 one thing that's really interesting, and all of us know this from covering Donald 142 00:11:58,500 --> 00:12:03,466 Trump and his folks for so long, is that it's the thing that they're doing is not always the 143 00:12:05,533 --> 00:12:08,433 thing that they want everyone to be paying attention to. And sometimes the underlying 144 00:12:08,433 --> 00:12:13,333 part of it is they just want his base to be -- stay riled up and understand that he wants -- 145 00:12:13,333 --> 00:12:15,466 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That's why Canada, exactly. 146 00:12:15,466 --> 00:12:19,500 EUGENE DANIELS: Exactly, to keep the fight. But that is also a part of this, right? So, 147 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,700 whether or not he wants to take Canada and be the 51st state, or whether or not he really 148 00:12:27,033 --> 00:12:30,600 truly believes deeply that the 14th Amendment does not give people who are born here citizenship. It 149 00:12:32,900 --> 00:12:37,033 is about the people within the party, and people in his base seeing him have the fight sometimes 150 00:12:39,066 --> 00:12:41,500 just for the fight's sake. Fighting with the judges is also a part of that. Not saying that 151 00:12:41,500 --> 00:12:45,233 he doesn't want to take it to the end of the line, but that fight is important to him and his team. 152 00:12:45,233 --> 00:12:49,833 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Let me spend a couple minutes talking about another dramatic action this week. 153 00:12:51,900 --> 00:12:55,366 The president has made moves to shut down the Department of Education. Admittedly, 154 00:12:55,366 --> 00:12:59,100 it's not a department founded in the late 1700, but it's a 155 00:13:01,500 --> 00:13:04,866 federal department starting in 1979 and the Carter administration. What was his motivation? David? 156 00:13:06,766 --> 00:13:11,766 DAVID IGNATIUS: So, if you read the announcement, the order, 157 00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:17,400 he says We have an education crisis in America that our students are not performing up to world 158 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:24,333 standards. We need to fix that. And so he's going to dismantle this bureaucracy, 159 00:13:26,566 --> 00:13:30,266 which he argues is obstructing performance. You know, we do have an education crisis in America, 160 00:13:32,366 --> 00:13:37,233 but the Department of Education is not the reason. It's a big, complicated cultural issue. 161 00:13:38,966 --> 00:13:42,733 It deserves everybody's attention. And, again, this is a distraction. 162 00:13:42,733 --> 00:13:45,400 Education's getting too politicized as it is. 163 00:13:47,500 --> 00:13:49,066 DAVID IGNATIUS: And this makes it even more so. And I think that's really the sad part. 164 00:13:49,066 --> 00:13:51,933 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want to read you what Jimmy Carter said when 165 00:13:51,933 --> 00:13:56,933 he established the department in 1979. I don't know what history will show, 166 00:13:58,933 --> 00:14:01,266 but my guess is that the best move for the quality of life in America in the future 167 00:14:01,266 --> 00:14:06,133 might very well be the establishment of this new Department of Education. 168 00:14:06,133 --> 00:14:10,533 Nancy, did it achieve what Jimmy Carter sought? 169 00:14:10,533 --> 00:14:14,533 NANCY YOUSSEF: Well, let's talk about what it doesn't do. It doesn't set curriculum. It doesn't 170 00:14:14,533 --> 00:14:19,533 set graduation requirements. It doesn't set enrollments. What it ended up doing were things 171 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:26,100 like student loans. It ended up advocating for disabled students to be able to get an 172 00:14:28,300 --> 00:14:30,466 education. And under the Trump administration, those responsibilities are going to be divvied 173 00:14:30,466 --> 00:14:35,033 out to other government organizations, small business administration for loans and HHS. 174 00:14:36,566 --> 00:14:40,500 I think the challenge is what the -- that in divvying it up, 175 00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:44,800 while the federal government will still have a role, once it's not under one umbrella, 176 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:49,400 which the Department of Education provided and have and carried that responsibility of 177 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:54,400 really having an education-focus mandate on these issues, you risk that those issues will 178 00:14:56,700 --> 00:14:59,500 not be addressed as sufficiently and adequately as they were under the Department of Education. 179 00:15:01,533 --> 00:15:04,866 HHS might have experience with dealing with meeting the needs of the disabled 180 00:15:04,866 --> 00:15:08,833 but it doesn't have the experience of making sure that disabled children have 181 00:15:08,833 --> 00:15:11,533 their needs met to make sure they get an equal education. 182 00:15:11,533 --> 00:15:13,633 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Michael? 183 00:15:13,633 --> 00:15:15,833 MICHAEL SCHERER: There's another thing going on here. There is -- it's a smaller part of 184 00:15:15,833 --> 00:15:18,833 Department of Education, but there's an $800 million think tank in the middle of it that 185 00:15:18,833 --> 00:15:23,833 does things like track the education performance of American students. So, the reason we know -- 186 00:15:25,300 --> 00:15:27,166 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: The reason we know we're doing badly -- 187 00:15:27,166 --> 00:15:29,400 MICHAEL SCHERER: Badly is (INAUDIBLE) education. They train teachers, 188 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,633 they do research. They actually contribute to trying to improve things. 189 00:15:32,633 --> 00:15:34,800 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Where do they say it's going? 190 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,266 MICHAEL SCHERER: They haven't. So, what the president has said is the final disposition 191 00:15:38,266 --> 00:15:43,266 of the Department of Education will have to go to Congress for, but it's not at all clear. I mean, 192 00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:47,600 they're clearly reducing the Department of Education like there are other agencies. 193 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,300 But what becomes of those other parts of the Department of Education is still an open question. 194 00:15:51,300 --> 00:15:54,400 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Eugene, the people of America are not exactly rising up 195 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,800 in defense of the Department of Education. It's sort of an 196 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:01,566 unloved department. What are the politics here for the Democrats? 197 00:16:01,566 --> 00:16:05,833 EUGENE DANIELS: Well, part of it is that people don't know -- they don't care what 198 00:16:05,833 --> 00:16:10,066 organizations or what departments are doing the things that impact their daily life. They just 199 00:16:10,066 --> 00:16:14,300 want it to happen, right? So, you go to someone and say, do you want the Department of Education 200 00:16:14,300 --> 00:16:18,000 to keep doing what it's doing? They'll be like, I don't know. But if you ask them, 201 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:22,533 do you want to make sure there's equity in schools? Do you want to make sure someone cares 202 00:16:22,533 --> 00:16:27,033 about disabled kids and what they're learning and what access they have in schools? They'll say, 203 00:16:27,033 --> 00:16:30,433 yes, that's probably -- that's something that I want, right? And so the lack of 204 00:16:30,433 --> 00:16:35,033 specificity in the conversation, I think, makes it easier for Republicans to do this. 205 00:16:35,033 --> 00:16:39,066 And Donald Trump is not the first Republican that has promised or wanted to get rid of the 206 00:16:39,066 --> 00:16:42,600 Department of Education after it was created by Jimmy Carter. Ronald Reagan 207 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:47,133 ran on wanting to get rid of the Department of Education. So this has been a long hail 208 00:16:47,133 --> 00:16:51,900 dream of the Republican Party. But every single time, even when presidents talk 209 00:16:51,900 --> 00:16:56,300 to leaders in their party that were in Congress, the congressional leader said, 210 00:16:56,300 --> 00:17:00,933 no, we can't do that. There's no votes for that. And so there's still probably no votes for that. 211 00:17:00,933 --> 00:17:04,200 And so what you're seeing is instead of Donald Trump going to Congress and 212 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,100 saying, let's get rid of it, he's bleeding it out as much as he can. 213 00:17:07,100 --> 00:17:12,100 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. This is one more proof of the second term Trump tsunami approach, right.