WEBVTT 00:02.100 --> 00:04.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Good evening and welcome to Washington Week, and welcome to just another week 00:04.666 --> 00:09.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% in Donald Trump's Washington. People throw around the term constitutional crisis all the time, 00:11.566 --> 00:14.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and I include myself in the category of people here, but what does it actually 00:14.600 --> 00:19.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% mean? Would it be a constitutional crisis if the president defies a federal judge's order on 00:19.200 --> 00:24.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the detention of immigrants? Are we already in such a crisis? I have many questions. Luckily, 00:26.033 --> 00:29.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I also have very smart people at this table to help us understand these issues. 00:29.933 --> 00:34.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Joining me tonight, Eugene Daniels is a senior Washington correspondent and co-host of The 00:37.033 --> 00:40.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Weekend on MSNBC. David Ignatius is a columnist at The Washington Post. Michael Scherer is my 00:42.500 --> 00:47.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% colleague and a staff writer at The Atlantic. And Nancy Youssef is a national security correspondent 00:49.400 --> 00:53.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% at The Wall Street Journal. Thank you all for joining me, another no news week in Washington. 00:55.266 --> 00:59.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Let me go right to it, David. This is going to feel like a homework assignment, but what's 01:02.200 --> 01:05.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the definition of a constitutional crisis? And you cannot use ChatGPT to answer this question. 01:06.766 --> 01:09.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% DAVID IGNATIUS, Columnist, The Washington Post: So, 01:09.166 --> 01:12.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% my definition would be constitutional crisis is when the president defies the Supreme Court. 01:14.466 --> 01:19.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We're heading in that direction. The president is responding to sharp pushback from the chief 01:21.033 --> 01:25.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% justice by pushing back himself. Right wing Twitter is talking about a judicial coup. 01:28.800 --> 01:33.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% This is, you know, increasingly, I think, a dangerous moment. The president has gone 01:33.466 --> 01:38.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% after the. The executive agencies, he's going after congressionally authorized 01:40.600 --> 01:44.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% agencies and programs. He's going after the military, now he's going after the judiciary. 01:46.833 --> 01:50.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I do think that ahead of us is a confrontation in which the Supreme Court is going to decide what 01:52.866 --> 01:57.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% executive authority the president has. It'll be a landmark case. It's coming. 01:59.800 --> 02:03.000 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% But until we reach that moment, Jeff, I wouldn't say we're at the constitutional 02:03.000 --> 02:08.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% crisis. That's the moment where it will happen and we'll see what the court does. 02:10.100 --> 02:12.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Just to illustrate something you're talking about, I want you 02:12.400 --> 02:16.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% to all listen to the president sounding a bit ominous on the subject of judges he doesn't like. 02:19.166 --> 02:22.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% DONALD TRUMP, U.S. President: We have very bad judges, and these are judges 02:22.033 --> 02:25.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that shouldn't be allowed. I think they -- I think, at a certain point, 02:25.033 --> 02:28.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you have to start looking at what do you do when you have a rogue judge. 02:28.633 --> 02:33.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So, you know, obviously this is -- comments like these are what 02:35.133 --> 02:37.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% prompted the chief justice of the United States, John Roberts, 02:37.466 --> 02:42.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% to mildly rebuke the president and say, you know, you don't -- almost like schoolhouse rock style, 02:46.900 --> 02:51.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you don't get rid of judges because you disagree with him. That's not the system. 02:53.433 --> 02:55.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But, you know, David, you said something interesting. You said, 02:55.466 --> 02:59.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% when it goes to the Supreme Court, if he defies the Supreme Court. But, Michael, 02:59.500 --> 03:04.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% we have a situation right now where he seemed to be defying a judge at the district court 03:06.866 --> 03:10.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% level about a live issue. That was the movement of illegal aliens, immigrants, undocumented, alleged 03:15.200 --> 03:20.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% gang members, et cetera, out of the country. So, why is that not a constitutional crisis? 03:22.333 --> 03:24.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% MICHAEL SCHERER, Staff Writer, The Atlantic: Well, I would say it's not a constitutional 03:24.433 --> 03:26.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% crisis because that judge is still having hearings. There was another hearing today. 03:26.800 --> 03:31.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% There was a hearing yesterday. He could put sanctions on the government next week if he 03:31.066 --> 03:34.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% finds against the president. President could then appeal those sanctions, 03:34.033 --> 03:36.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and that's how the process works. That's how we roll through. 03:36.666 --> 03:41.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Now, it's not unheard of that a litigant before a court would defy a judge. What would be unheard of 03:43.733 --> 03:47.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% is if it goes to the end of the road, as David said, especially in a court where, you know, 03:49.800 --> 03:53.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% six of the nine recently ruled in Trump's favor in Trump in the election interference case, and 03:56.833 --> 04:01.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% three of them he appointed. So, if he defies this court, that will be a remarkable moment, I think. 04:03.933 --> 04:07.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So, Eugene, you agree that it's not a crisis yet? It's just probing a bit? 04:11.100 --> 04:13.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% EUGENE DANIELS, Senior Washington Correspondent, MSNBC: Not a constitutional crisis. I think a lot 04:13.300 --> 04:17.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of people would say it is some type of crisis. No, but I think they're right, like we have a 04:17.300 --> 04:22.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% system. And the apex of this, the peak of it is in that crash is when we're at the end of the road, 04:25.066 --> 04:30.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% as Michael was just saying, and we're not there yet. It doesn't appear that they're slowing down, 04:32.366 --> 04:35.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% this White House. They continue to say like, you know, we are going to do what these judges say, 04:35.433 --> 04:39.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% but then you have the president saying these other things, so there're these conflicting messages. 04:39.633 --> 04:43.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I think the most important part of this is there are three branches of government, 04:43.600 --> 04:48.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% right? They are supposed to be co-equal branches of government. The legislative branch also has a 04:48.266 --> 04:53.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% hand to play. So, if Donald Trump is to, let's say, at the end of the day, defy the Supreme 04:53.033 --> 04:58.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Court and do what -- does whatever he wants to do, then you have the legislative branch that 05:00.200 --> 05:02.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% is supposed to do something, that Congress should step in and do something as a part of 05:02.666 --> 05:06.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% that. But you have to be co-equal. Everyone has to agree they're co-equal. And at this point, 05:06.900 --> 05:11.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the Republicans in Congress are just fine with Donald Trump of telling them what to do. 05:11.100 --> 05:14.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It doesn't seem like Donald Trump believes that they're co-equal. But, 05:14.266 --> 05:19.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Nancy -- yes. But, Nancy, so you just made an interesting point about Congress. Maybe this 05:21.433 --> 05:26.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% is not a constitutional collapse. Maybe it's sort of constitutional narcolepsy in a kind of 05:28.700 --> 05:31.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% way. I'm looking for a saying here to see if it catches on. No. Like there's a kind of collapse 05:33.800 --> 05:37.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% here in the sense that Congress -- the judges are doing their thing right now. Congress, Republican 05:39.666 --> 05:44.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% ruled in both houses, Congress doesn't seem to be seized by this issue of defiance or this idea that 05:49.333 --> 05:54.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% judges I don't like, I as the president, don't like, should be impeached. Where's Congress? 05:56.466 --> 05:58.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% NANCY YOUSSEF, National Security Correspondent, The Wall Street Journal: Well, let's start -- 05:58.266 --> 05:59.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Don't say at the end of Pennsylvania, by the way. 05:59.633 --> 06:02.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% NANCY YOUSSEF: Oh, then I'm done. I got nothing. 06:02.300 --> 06:06.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Well, I think it comes back to your original question of what is a constitutional crisis 06:06.100 --> 06:09.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and the fact that we don't agree on it and that the party doesn't agree and that Congress 06:09.800 --> 06:14.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% doesn't agree on it, so therefore there's not a resolution on how to address it. If you believe a 06:17.033 --> 06:19.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% constitutional crisis is when we get to the point where constitutional rights can't guide us to a 06:19.366 --> 06:24.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% resolution of conflict, then I think there's an agreement of sort of congressional intervention. 06:26.000 --> 06:28.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And having said that, if you agree, if you believe that a judge rules incorrectly, 06:28.333 --> 06:31.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% there's a role for Congress as well. So, to Eugene's point, 06:31.800 --> 06:36.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% these ideas of checks and balances they happen throughout. I think the challenges, 06:38.833 --> 06:42.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% because we're seeing a real flood of the zone in terms of some of these challenges, 06:42.233 --> 06:47.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a disagreement about what defies meets defiance versus testing boundaries. I think how that's 06:49.600 --> 06:53.133 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% mapping out on the hill is that you're not seeing a uniform response in terms of how to address it. 06:53.133 --> 06:58.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% EUGENE DANIELS: In Congress itself, when Donald Trump defied them and said, 06:59.933 --> 07:01.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% I'm not going to -- you know, DOGE is going to do whatever it wants. And 07:01.900 --> 07:06.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% these organizations that you guys created, we're not going to spend 07:08.966 --> 07:11.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% those monies. We're not going to do that. They don't even care if he does that. So, 07:11.200 --> 07:15.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I don't see them jumping in if he's having beef with judges, I just don't see it happening. 07:15.766 --> 07:18.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: David, you've watched this stuff for a while and, 07:20.900 --> 07:24.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it just -- it struck me that in ordinary times, a chief justice of the United States, 07:26.166 --> 07:31.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% rebuking, or however you want to term what Chief Justice Roberts did, 07:33.066 --> 07:37.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that would be a momentous story, rebuking the president of the United States for 07:37.000 --> 07:42.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% saying things that are out of the bounds of this idea of co-equality among the branches. 07:45.733 --> 07:50.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% How odd is this moment historically? And, B, let's say it goes to the Supreme Court, 07:54.633 --> 07:59.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% let's say the Supreme Court rules against Donald Trump. It's not impossible. Obviously, 08:01.633 --> 08:04.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% people on the right are worried about Amy Coney Barrett and her in independence from 08:06.800 --> 08:10.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the movement. What would it look like the day -- what would America look like 08:12.233 --> 08:15.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% the day after Trump said, I'm not listening to the Supreme Court? 08:15.133 --> 08:20.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% DAVID IGNATIUS: So, you know, that's a moment that we dread to imagine what authority in the end 08:22.400 --> 08:26.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% would the Supreme Court have to enforce its ruling against the president. And in the end, I think 08:28.866 --> 08:33.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% we would have a constitutional crisis. We would have the people, I hope, enraged at the defiance. 08:35.933 --> 08:40.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I mean, you know, that's a direct assault on the Constitution. Every official of the United States 08:40.066 --> 08:44.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% government swears an oath to the Constitution. They need to be reminded of that. Every member 08:44.533 --> 08:49.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of Congress surely understands that an attack on the Supreme Court of the United States goes 08:51.666 --> 08:55.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to the very heart of what our country is, what the founders imagine. You take a look at the 08:55.200 --> 08:59.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Constitution, it couldn't be clearer, you know? It just enumerates the powers of each branch. 09:01.300 --> 09:04.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Article 3, talking about the powers of the judiciary couldn't be clearer. 09:04.666 --> 09:09.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And that's what Trump is going at. All this talk that Trump is encouraging about judges, 09:12.433 --> 09:17.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you know, issuing orders, blocking things, calling that a judicial coup. When Roberts 09:19.533 --> 09:23.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% questions his authority, he waited a day and then he came right back and attacked Roberts 09:26.033 --> 09:29.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% by name and said, Roberts must immediately, in all caps, fix this or bad things will happen. 09:32.733 --> 09:36.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% MICHAEL SCHERER: There's another way of interpreting what the president's doing right now, 09:36.100 --> 09:40.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% which is he went to the Justice Department last week and told a story about Bobby Knight, 09:40.733 --> 09:44.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the basketball coach, and how great he was at working the refs. It's clearly in his 09:44.400 --> 09:48.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% mind. It's also true that a lot of the things his administration wants to do, 09:48.600 --> 09:53.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it needs the court to change current legal interpretation to do. He needs judges. 09:53.600 --> 09:57.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Either he's going to go, you know, totally rip up the Constitution and go it alone, 09:57.933 --> 10:01.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% or he's going to do what they've said they're going to do, which is to challenge birthright 10:01.100 --> 10:04.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% citizenship, to challenge the impoundment act, to challenge all these laws that are 10:04.600 --> 10:08.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% on the books right now that are interpreted as legal right now that he doesn't think are legal. 10:08.933 --> 10:13.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so I think a way of looking at what this is what he is doing here, and he did it in the first 10:13.333 --> 10:18.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% term, is he's threatening judges. He's saying, look, I'll make your life hard. If you defy me, 10:20.633 --> 10:23.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I'm going to call you out. I'm going to make everything difficult around you. And he's doing 10:23.433 --> 10:27.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a Bobby Knight. He's throwing the chair, you know, into the middle of the basketball court. 10:27.966 --> 10:31.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Nancy, I don't want to ask you to speculate, 10:31.033 --> 10:36.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% but could you speculate on the likelihood that Donald Trump actually exceeds all of these red 10:40.633 --> 10:45.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% lines based on the first couple of months of this administration. I mean, it seems 10:47.766 --> 10:51.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% implausible to my American brain that such a thing could happen in federal government, but -- 10:53.400 --> 10:57.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% NANCY YOUSSEF: Well, I think to my, to the point you just made is because they're not using just 10:57.533 --> 11:02.500 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% one all. Usually when we've had constitutional and challenges, it's been over one issue. The flooding 11:02.500 --> 11:07.500 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% of the zone I think is having real impact in that. They might lose on birthright but win on something 11:09.600 --> 11:12.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% else, and so that it allows us to sort of extend itself and go on for extended periods of time. 11:16.033 --> 11:20.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I think the one thing that sort of gives me hope is once we get to that point of a constitutional 11:20.900 --> 11:25.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% crisis, where it's defiance and it's open, we are saying that the country's ruled by one, 11:27.900 --> 11:30.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and the spirit of this country, I don't think would allow for that. It's not just 11:30.233 --> 11:34.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the Constitution, but the very nature of this country has fought against one person ruling to 11:34.233 --> 11:39.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% get to that crisis is one person now ruling, the president. And so that's where I'm optimistic. 11:40.933 --> 11:43.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And I think, practically speaking, the number of cases that have come 11:43.700 --> 11:48.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% forward is such that I don't think it'll be a straight line. It'll be some cases they win, 11:48.300 --> 11:51.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% some cases they lose, and that in and of itself will affect the timeline. 11:51.333 --> 11:53.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes, go ahead. 11:53.433 --> 11:56.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% EUGENE DANIELS: But also, some of this is just about basing the fight, right? So, 11:56.033 --> 11:58.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% one thing that's really interesting, and all of us know this from covering Donald 11:58.500 --> 12:03.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Trump and his folks for so long, is that it's the thing that they're doing is not always the 12:05.533 --> 12:08.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% thing that they want everyone to be paying attention to. And sometimes the underlying 12:08.433 --> 12:13.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% part of it is they just want his base to be -- stay riled up and understand that he wants -- 12:13.333 --> 12:15.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That's why Canada, exactly. 12:15.466 --> 12:19.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% EUGENE DANIELS: Exactly, to keep the fight. But that is also a part of this, right? So, 12:21.600 --> 12:24.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% whether or not he wants to take Canada and be the 51st state, or whether or not he really 12:27.033 --> 12:30.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% truly believes deeply that the 14th Amendment does not give people who are born here citizenship. It 12:32.900 --> 12:37.033 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% is about the people within the party, and people in his base seeing him have the fight sometimes 12:39.066 --> 12:41.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% just for the fight's sake. Fighting with the judges is also a part of that. Not saying that 12:41.500 --> 12:45.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% he doesn't want to take it to the end of the line, but that fight is important to him and his team. 12:45.233 --> 12:49.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Let me spend a couple minutes talking about another dramatic action this week. 12:51.900 --> 12:55.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The president has made moves to shut down the Department of Education. Admittedly, 12:55.366 --> 12:59.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it's not a department founded in the late 1700, but it's a 13:01.500 --> 13:04.866 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% federal department starting in 1979 and the Carter administration. What was his motivation? David? 13:06.766 --> 13:11.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% DAVID IGNATIUS: So, if you read the announcement, the order, 13:14.100 --> 13:17.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% he says We have an education crisis in America that our students are not performing up to world 13:19.400 --> 13:24.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% standards. We need to fix that. And so he's going to dismantle this bureaucracy, 13:26.566 --> 13:30.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% which he argues is obstructing performance. You know, we do have an education crisis in America, 13:32.366 --> 13:37.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but the Department of Education is not the reason. It's a big, complicated cultural issue. 13:38.966 --> 13:42.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% It deserves everybody's attention. And, again, this is a distraction. 13:42.733 --> 13:45.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Education's getting too politicized as it is. 13:47.500 --> 13:49.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% DAVID IGNATIUS: And this makes it even more so. And I think that's really the sad part. 13:49.066 --> 13:51.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want to read you what Jimmy Carter said when 13:51.933 --> 13:56.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% he established the department in 1979. I don't know what history will show, 13:58.933 --> 14:01.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% but my guess is that the best move for the quality of life in America in the future 14:01.266 --> 14:06.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% might very well be the establishment of this new Department of Education. 14:06.133 --> 14:10.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Nancy, did it achieve what Jimmy Carter sought? 14:10.533 --> 14:14.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% NANCY YOUSSEF: Well, let's talk about what it doesn't do. It doesn't set curriculum. It doesn't 14:14.533 --> 14:19.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% set graduation requirements. It doesn't set enrollments. What it ended up doing were things 14:21.600 --> 14:26.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% like student loans. It ended up advocating for disabled students to be able to get an 14:28.300 --> 14:30.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% education. And under the Trump administration, those responsibilities are going to be divvied 14:30.466 --> 14:35.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% out to other government organizations, small business administration for loans and HHS. 14:36.566 --> 14:40.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think the challenge is what the -- that in divvying it up, 14:40.500 --> 14:44.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% while the federal government will still have a role, once it's not under one umbrella, 14:44.800 --> 14:49.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% which the Department of Education provided and have and carried that responsibility of 14:49.400 --> 14:54.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% really having an education-focus mandate on these issues, you risk that those issues will 14:56.700 --> 14:59.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% not be addressed as sufficiently and adequately as they were under the Department of Education. 15:01.533 --> 15:04.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% HHS might have experience with dealing with meeting the needs of the disabled 15:04.866 --> 15:08.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% but it doesn't have the experience of making sure that disabled children have 15:08.833 --> 15:11.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% their needs met to make sure they get an equal education. 15:11.533 --> 15:13.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Michael? 15:13.633 --> 15:15.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% MICHAEL SCHERER: There's another thing going on here. There is -- it's a smaller part of 15:15.833 --> 15:18.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Department of Education, but there's an $800 million think tank in the middle of it that 15:18.833 --> 15:23.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% does things like track the education performance of American students. So, the reason we know -- 15:25.300 --> 15:27.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: The reason we know we're doing badly -- 15:27.166 --> 15:29.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% MICHAEL SCHERER: Badly is (INAUDIBLE) education. They train teachers, 15:29.400 --> 15:32.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% they do research. They actually contribute to trying to improve things. 15:32.633 --> 15:34.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Where do they say it's going? 15:34.800 --> 15:38.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% MICHAEL SCHERER: They haven't. So, what the president has said is the final disposition 15:38.266 --> 15:43.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% of the Department of Education will have to go to Congress for, but it's not at all clear. I mean, 15:45.300 --> 15:47.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% they're clearly reducing the Department of Education like there are other agencies. 15:47.600 --> 15:51.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% But what becomes of those other parts of the Department of Education is still an open question. 15:51.300 --> 15:54.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Eugene, the people of America are not exactly rising up 15:54.400 --> 15:56.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in defense of the Department of Education. It's sort of an 15:56.800 --> 16:01.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% unloved department. What are the politics here for the Democrats? 16:01.566 --> 16:05.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% EUGENE DANIELS: Well, part of it is that people don't know -- they don't care what 16:05.833 --> 16:10.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% organizations or what departments are doing the things that impact their daily life. They just 16:10.066 --> 16:14.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% want it to happen, right? So, you go to someone and say, do you want the Department of Education 16:14.300 --> 16:18.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to keep doing what it's doing? They'll be like, I don't know. But if you ask them, 16:18.000 --> 16:22.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% do you want to make sure there's equity in schools? Do you want to make sure someone cares 16:22.533 --> 16:27.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% about disabled kids and what they're learning and what access they have in schools? They'll say, 16:27.033 --> 16:30.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% yes, that's probably -- that's something that I want, right? And so the lack of 16:30.433 --> 16:35.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% specificity in the conversation, I think, makes it easier for Republicans to do this. 16:35.033 --> 16:39.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And Donald Trump is not the first Republican that has promised or wanted to get rid of the 16:39.066 --> 16:42.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Department of Education after it was created by Jimmy Carter. Ronald Reagan 16:42.600 --> 16:47.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ran on wanting to get rid of the Department of Education. So this has been a long hail 16:47.133 --> 16:51.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% dream of the Republican Party. But every single time, even when presidents talk 16:51.900 --> 16:56.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to leaders in their party that were in Congress, the congressional leader said, 16:56.300 --> 17:00.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% no, we can't do that. There's no votes for that. And so there's still probably no votes for that. 17:00.933 --> 17:04.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so what you're seeing is instead of Donald Trump going to Congress and 17:04.200 --> 17:07.100 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% saying, let's get rid of it, he's bleeding it out as much as he can. 17:07.100 --> 17:12.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. This is one more proof of the second term Trump tsunami approach, right.