WEBVTT

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I want to turn to a subject
that doesn't give you particular
hope at the moment, which is the

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immediate future of the
Democratic Party. You've
been very critical of
the Democrats for veering

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into identity politics
and away from the interest
of the working class,
of working people.

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Here's what you wrote
recently in The Atlantic.
The triumph of the

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Trump reaction, which is
what you call this whole
political moment we're in,

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the triumph of the Trump
reaction should put an end
to two progressive illusions

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that have considerably
strengthened it. One is
the notion that identity
is political destiny.

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For a long time, the
Democratic Party regarded
demographic change in America,

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the coming minority majority,
as a consoling promise during
interim Republican victories.

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As the country turned less
white, it would inevitably
turn more blue. Not true. And,

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by the way, you mentioned
a second illusion about
majoritarianism, which
you say by this theory,

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the Democratic Party is kept out
of power by a white Republican
minority that thwarts the

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popular will through voter
suppression, gerrymandering,
judicial legislating,

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filibuster, the
composition of the Senate
and Electoral College.

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By this thinking, the ultimate
obstacle to the American
promise is the Constitution

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itself. That doesn't sound like
a winning cause, particularly.

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GEORGE PACKER: Especially
now that we're hearing about
some Republican legislators

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who want a second
constitutional convention
and who are pushing for

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it because they want to turn the
Constitution into Project 2025.

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So,
why did Kamala Harris
lose in the framework of
what you're writing here?

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GEORGE PACKER: There are other
things outside the framework,

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I think, that had a lot to do
with it, inflation, the border,

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Joe Biden waiting far too long
to do what he should have done
all along, and then Kamala

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Harris being installed by
party elites instead of
nominated by a democratic
process, so all of that.

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But I think the larger
problem is the Democratic
Party has become the party
of the establishment,

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of the status quo, of the
institutions, which is
not the worst thing to
be. They need defending,

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but they also need reforming.
And not along the lines that
the party has been pursuing,

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which has been basically to
believe that the most basic
identity of a citizen is

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group identity based on
race, gender, sexuality.

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And that is how the party's
organized itself. It's how it's
seen its constituents, how it's

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come to various positions on
cultural issues. And I think in
doing so, it has lost a large

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number of ordinary Americans
who don't see themselves
primarily in those terms, who

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are mostly working class,
middle class, and who
used to be the backbone
of the Democratic Party.

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If you look at the party
50 years ago and today,
it's almost done a reversal
with the Republicans

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losing its working class base
and inheriting college-educated
professionals who used to be

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the Republican Party's base. And
that, to some prognosticators,
seemed like a good direction to

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go in and it has turned
out not to because there
are a lot of non-college
educated Americans of all

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races and they are moving toward
the Republican Party. And that
is not a winning strategy.

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Something
that's really notable in
the last round was that
the elites, New York,

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Washington, Los Angeles,
San Francisco, surprised
to the point of being
shocked that black people,

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black men in particular,
Hispanic men in particular,
would vote for somebody,

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Donald Trump, who has said
outrageous, offensive,
racist things about those
groups. What are you

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taking from that? What
are you taking from both
that reality and also the
surprise of the elites?

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GEORGE PACKER: Yes. Well,
they shouldn't be that
surprised because this has been

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a trend over the last few
election cycles. So, you have
to pretty much wipe your mind

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of the memory of those
demographic numbers
from the last couple
of elections to think

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that this couldn't happen.
It's been happening for a
while. It really happened

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this year. Because if you look
at, say, where I live, New
York, the borough where Harris'

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numbers went up over Biden's
in 2020 was Manhattan,
the most white borough,

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the group over $100,000
income, so in other words,
well to do white people,

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whereas in Queens and the Bronx,
where it's a nonwhite majority,
Trump improved his numbers.

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG:
Asian also, by the way.

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GEORGE PACKER: Asian,
Hispanic, black.

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So, I was standing in
a giant crowd outside
Madison Square Garden
right before the election,

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trying to get in to hear
the final Trump, yes,
the big New York rally
where all kinds of crazy

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things were being said. I
couldn't get in. There were too
many people. But I had a maybe

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more interesting experience
was I standing in a group of
three guys who were Trinidadian

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immigrants who lived in
Flatbush, which is a very black
and Latino part of Brooklyn,

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immigrant part of Brooklyn. They
were wearing full MAGA regalia.

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And I said, why are you
here? Why are you for
him? The price of eggs,

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we're not respected around the
world, and that stuff he says,
we just don't listen to it. We

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don't take it that seriously.
And, by the way, there are a lot
of people like us in Flatbush.

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They just don't wear the MAGA
hats, but they're there. They
were right. And they have to be

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listened to and taken
seriously and not told you
have false consciousness,
you're voting against

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your interests, all the things
that Democrats have said about
people like that. How about

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hearing what they say and
then thinking, how can
we appeal to them without
betraying our values?

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Do
you think the Democrats

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are going to reform in order
to beat the next Republican?

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GEORGE PACKER: I don't think so.

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Why?

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GEORGE PACKER: I think it'll
take longer than that, because,
first of all, I don't see the

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immediate aftermath of the
election moving in that
direction. I don't see a kind of

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party-wide sense we have to
do something different, which
is what happened after '88,

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when, for the third
straight time, a Republican
wiped out a Democrat for
president, and because

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these are entrenched ways
of thinking and ways of
organizing the party. And
they can't be uprooted

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quickly. There are interest
groups whose entire purpose, not
just financial but idealistic,

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is to push the party in the
direction that I think has
cornered it in a way that makes

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it less and less popular
with the broad American
public. And they're not
going to go away either.

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The donors, who are the
financial backbone, may
not feel the economic

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pressures that ordinary people
do and may be more concerned
with the cultural issues. So --

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG: A million
bucks buys a lot of eggs?

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GEORGE PACKER: Yes, it does.

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG:
That's my slogan.

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GEORGE PACKER: I think that
could be a good one for 2028,
if anyone wants to grab it.

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes. I'm going
to do something terrible to you
now. We have like about a minute

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and a half, but I want to
ask you about America's
role in the world. You're
going to have, basically

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by the time I finished
talking, a minute to answer
whether the next Trump
administration is going to

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bring an end to the
80-year period of the
post-war liberal order that
America has undertaken.

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Obviously, you have a lot
of experience covering
foreign policy and
America's adventures and

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misadventures and attempts,
idealistic attempts
to remake the world.
Give me a minute on how

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isolationist and how
post-NATO, to put it in
shorthand, we're going to
see this administration.

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GEORGE PACKER: Well, like the
drift toward of the working
class for the Republican Party,

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this has also been going on
for a while. If you look at
how many wars have broken out,

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the Biden administration
has pretty much been
unable to work its will
on in the last few years.

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It's clear that we are not the
unipolar power that we were
after the end of the Cold War,

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but we still stood for
something. And that something
actually was important.

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Of course, we violated it.
Of course, we're hypocrites,
like any great power,

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but we stood for a
certain order, a certain
set of values, a certain
liberal view of the world.

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And I think that could
collapse very quickly under
Trump because he doesn't
believe in it. In fact,

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he wants to destroy it and
so do the people who he's
putting into key positions.

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well,
we'll have you back next
year to see how that's
going, but I'm really glad

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that you joined me tonight.
Unfortunately, we do
need to leave it there.