1 00:00:02,100 --> 00:00:04,100 The race for the White House is deadlocked, and with two and a half weeks to go before 2 00:00:04,100 --> 00:00:07,800 Election Day, Kamala Harris and Donald Trump are running out of time to win over 3 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:12,800 undecided voters and dramatically alter the trajectory of what's becoming a more intense, 4 00:00:13,966 --> 00:00:17,600 aggressive, and sometimes bizarre contest. 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,133 Joining me tonight to discuss this and more, Peter Baker, 6 00:00:21,133 --> 00:00:25,333 the chief White House correspondent at The New York Times, Francesca Chambers 7 00:00:25,333 --> 00:00:30,066 is a White House correspondent for USA Today, Susan Glasser is a staff writer 8 00:00:30,066 --> 00:00:35,066 at The New Yorker, and Vivian Salama is a political reporter for The Wall Street Journal. 9 00:00:37,166 --> 00:00:41,300 Susan, I want to ask a question about what the kids call the vibes. It feels like there's not 10 00:00:43,533 --> 00:00:48,500 a tsunami of excitement overwhelming us right now. Are we sleepwalking into this election? 11 00:00:50,666 --> 00:00:53,666 SUSAN GLASSER, Staff Writer, The New Yorker: You know, Frank, eight years into the Trump 12 00:00:53,666 --> 00:00:58,633 era in American politics, we're still asking and not yet answering the same question. You know, 13 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,466 is Donald Trump, who's broken every norm of American politics, of the American presidency, 14 00:01:06,533 --> 00:01:10,466 really going to be the first president in more than a century to be returned to power despite 15 00:01:12,666 --> 00:01:15,733 everything? And what's remarkable right now is that there is at least an even chance, 16 00:01:15,733 --> 00:01:18,600 if not better than an even chance, of that happening. 17 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:23,333 And yet this vibe that you're talking about, you know, we've lost the summer of joy. It 18 00:01:23,333 --> 00:01:28,333 seems to me we've moved way beyond that. Kamala Harris is no longer making fun of Donald Trump 19 00:01:30,533 --> 00:01:33,933 and saying he's weird. She's saying he's a threat to democracy, as we know it. And Trump 20 00:01:36,166 --> 00:01:39,600 has escalated his rhetoric in a way that seems determined to prove the point that she's making. 21 00:01:41,100 --> 00:01:44,166 FRANKLIN FOER: Yes. Just how do you account for that apathy? 22 00:01:44,166 --> 00:01:48,100 SUSAN GLASSER: You know, Trump fatigue, I guess, is a real thing. You know, 23 00:01:48,100 --> 00:01:53,066 we've been overwhelmed with a fugue of lies and misinformation and scandal and 24 00:01:55,266 --> 00:01:58,900 disinformation for so long, we all know people who've just tuned out of that until perhaps just 25 00:02:01,033 --> 00:02:05,100 now. Democrats, I have noticed a very marked shift just in the last couple of weeks, 26 00:02:07,166 --> 00:02:10,800 a dawning realization that a Trump second term is a true possibility. My question is, 27 00:02:12,500 --> 00:02:16,233 is this realization coming too late for them in the election cycle? 28 00:02:18,333 --> 00:02:21,333 FRANKLIN FOER: Vivian, I just want to double check what Susan said and get your sense because, 29 00:02:23,333 --> 00:02:26,233 clearly, within Democratic circles, there's a lot of handwringing about the election 30 00:02:26,233 --> 00:02:29,933 and implied in what she said or what she actually said is that Donald Trump has the 31 00:02:29,933 --> 00:02:34,300 upper hand right now headed into this last stretch of the election. Do you think that that's right? 32 00:02:34,300 --> 00:02:36,533 VIVIAN SALAMA, National Politics Reporter, The Wall Street Journal: I spoke to a top 33 00:02:36,533 --> 00:02:41,066 Trump official just before the show, actually, and he told me they're cautiously optimistic. 34 00:02:41,066 --> 00:02:45,600 At this point, they see the polls working in their favor to an extent. Obviously, 35 00:02:47,666 --> 00:02:51,433 you know, it's anyone's race at this point, but he does have a slight advantage in most 36 00:02:53,733 --> 00:02:56,166 of the swing states at this point. They do feel that he's in a comfortable position. And that's 37 00:02:56,166 --> 00:03:00,166 reflected in the type of events that he's done just in the past week, but also in the coming 38 00:03:00,166 --> 00:03:05,066 week, where a lot of it is more sort of splash here, big media events and not necessarily 39 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:11,500 directly targeted at a particular strategy. They're looking to just get him out there, 40 00:03:13,300 --> 00:03:17,100 get as many people as possible and just amplify his shtick, if you will, 41 00:03:19,366 --> 00:03:24,066 without necessarily honing in on any particular groups. And that's where we are at this stage. 42 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,200 FRANKLIN FOER: Wait, does anybody disagree with 43 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,400 Trump having the upper hand right now or do we all -- your consensus? 44 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,533 PETER BAKER, Chief White House Correspondent, The New York Times: Well, with all respect, 45 00:03:31,533 --> 00:03:34,700 I mean, I know the vibe is the vibe, but the truth is, like it was a tie a month ago, 46 00:03:34,700 --> 00:03:39,700 it's a tie today. And nature of horror is a vacuum. And the political media class 47 00:03:41,700 --> 00:03:43,700 of horror is a static story. But that's what we've got. We've got a static story. 48 00:03:43,700 --> 00:03:47,066 So, we look for small changes in the polls. It's a point here, a point there, 49 00:03:47,066 --> 00:03:50,500 and we're trying to make large conclusions out of it. I think the honest truth is we 50 00:03:50,500 --> 00:03:52,800 don't know. We're not going to know for two more weeks. We might as well go to 51 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,666 sleep for two weeks and wake up on Election Day because that's when we'll start to really know. 52 00:03:56,666 --> 00:03:59,966 But the truth is, we're not changing anybody's mind at this point. People 53 00:03:59,966 --> 00:04:03,266 have made up their minds. There's a small number of people out there who 54 00:04:03,266 --> 00:04:07,400 may yet be winnable by Kamala Harris who otherwise probably won't vote, 55 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,500 they're not going to go to Trump. He's not gaining any voters, he's not losing any voters, 56 00:04:11,500 --> 00:04:15,833 it's all about whether she can get those small number of people who voted for Biden last time, 57 00:04:15,833 --> 00:04:19,466 not because they were Democrats maybe, not because they liked Biden maybe, but because 58 00:04:19,466 --> 00:04:22,866 they didn't like Trump. And she's out there now reminding them why they didn't like Trump, 59 00:04:22,866 --> 00:04:27,866 in a sort of belated way, making that contrast the last part of her pitch to the audience. 60 00:04:29,566 --> 00:04:31,733 FRANKLIN FOER: It would just have - - I mean, you only look spry, 61 00:04:31,733 --> 00:04:35,266 but I think you have a great beard, and just play the role of historian and compare this to 62 00:04:35,266 --> 00:04:40,266 where we sat in the races in 2016 and 2020. It feels Different than those campaigns. 63 00:04:42,166 --> 00:04:46,133 BAKER: It does. Well, in 2016, obviously, Democrats were somewhat overconfident, 64 00:04:46,133 --> 00:04:49,333 right? They thought they had in the bag. Everybody assumed, including the media, 65 00:04:49,333 --> 00:04:52,800 that Hillary Clinton was definitely going to win. Now, obviously, that last-minute intervention by 66 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:57,200 James Comey on the emails changed the dynamics in the last few days. But there was, clearly, 67 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,433 you could argue, some complacency they didn't necessarily know what's going to happen and 68 00:05:00,433 --> 00:05:05,100 they didn't necessarily see Trump as the threat that today's Democrats do, right? They didn't 69 00:05:05,100 --> 00:05:08,900 necessarily see him as a threat to democracy. Today's Democrats have no doubt about that. 70 00:05:08,900 --> 00:05:12,666 In 2020, Biden had the upper hand most of the time. I think most people felt like 71 00:05:12,666 --> 00:05:16,400 he was probably going to hang on. He had a better lead going into the Election Day than 72 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:21,400 he actually came out of Election Day. So, there are two maybe over overestimating it. But today, 73 00:05:23,466 --> 00:05:25,533 we feel very different than either of those elections because it is tight as a tick. 74 00:05:25,533 --> 00:05:29,800 FRANKLIN FOER: Just how much you both covered, Susan, Peter, you both were in Russia 75 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:34,133 after the fall of the Soviet Union. You saw what post-communist life looked like, 76 00:05:34,133 --> 00:05:35,866 political life looked like, Anne Applebaum, I should guess, and 77 00:05:37,733 --> 00:05:41,533 they keep warning us about that the apathy that emerges when a figure like 78 00:05:41,533 --> 00:05:46,100 Trump confronts us. Does it feel like we're repeating that type of cycle? 79 00:05:46,100 --> 00:05:48,533 SUSAN GLASSER: Listen, I would say this if there's anybody in 80 00:05:48,533 --> 00:05:52,500 America who's not aware of the stakes at this moment of time, 81 00:05:52,500 --> 00:05:57,100 I think it's more the exhaustion than it is a lack of awareness, Frank. But I'll tell you, 82 00:05:57,100 --> 00:06:02,100 Peter and I lived through Vladimir Putin's rollback of Russian democracy 20 years ago, his 83 00:06:04,233 --> 00:06:07,900 first few years. And the time to defend democratic institutions is before they're taken away. 84 00:06:10,033 --> 00:06:14,833 And that's where I'm really -- I am stunned in particular. Look at the specificity with which 85 00:06:14,833 --> 00:06:19,833 Donald Trump has promised mass deportations, with which he and his advisers have said they 86 00:06:21,933 --> 00:06:25,266 would round up a million people and put them in camps They've actually used that phrasing. 87 00:06:27,533 --> 00:06:30,500 And I remember in January of 2017 the absolute hysteria and shock that greeted Donald Trump's 88 00:06:33,666 --> 00:06:38,666 Muslim ban just on seven countries. What is it going to feel like in this country on the 89 00:06:40,533 --> 00:06:44,333 first weekend of the Trump presidency in January of next year when people are 90 00:06:46,366 --> 00:06:49,800 being arrested and camps are being opened and it's going to be a level of hysteria. 91 00:06:51,666 --> 00:06:54,300 I don't think that people have really processed how quickly this can happen 92 00:06:54,300 --> 00:06:59,300 and how dramatically the country's set up can be changed in a very short amount 93 00:07:01,166 --> 00:07:04,700 of time, especially if Republicans win all three branches of government. 94 00:07:06,100 --> 00:07:10,200 FRANKLIN FOER: Chilling. So, Francesca, all right, 95 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:15,200 take us inside the Harris campaign. You cover the Harris campaign. Does it have a sense that 96 00:07:17,266 --> 00:07:22,233 Trump has the upper hand? What's its strategy for this closing stretch of the campaign? 97 00:07:22,233 --> 00:07:24,400 FRANCESCA CHAMBERS, White House Correspondent, USA Today: So, there's two very different 98 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:29,000 strategies taking place here, the way that the Harris campaign sees it. With Donald Trump, 99 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:34,000 they see him having a ceiling of support and they feel like he is reaching that ceiling. 100 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,400 With her, the vice president, you know, her ceiling isn't as well known because 101 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:43,300 she hasn't been in the race for very long, but if you pay attention to just what she 102 00:07:43,300 --> 00:07:47,200 had in terms of support coming out of Joe Biden, dropping out of the race, 103 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:52,200 and there was all that enthusiasm for her, even though it's been within a point or two points, 104 00:07:53,833 --> 00:07:56,600 you did see those subtle shifts in the battleground states. Her way, 105 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:01,600 you were seeing in the RealClearPolitics average, that she was up in the battleground states. So, 106 00:08:03,433 --> 00:08:06,733 certainly, she could get back to that support and enthusiasm level among voters. 107 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,133 They feel like he's out there at his rallies trying to really fire up his base and turn 108 00:08:12,133 --> 00:08:16,866 them out while they're still in persuasion mode. They're still introducing her to people, 109 00:08:16,866 --> 00:08:19,833 which, you know, when you're only a couple of weeks out from the election, 110 00:08:19,833 --> 00:08:24,466 still trying to persuade people to vote for you and tell them who you are, as to your point, 111 00:08:24,466 --> 00:08:28,233 maybe not where you want it, you want to be, but that is exactly where they are. 112 00:08:28,233 --> 00:08:32,300 So, at this point, she's trying what I call an all-of-the-above approach, 113 00:08:32,300 --> 00:08:37,300 which is reaching out to disaffected Republicans, trying to get those independents. You saw her 114 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,266 just within like the same set of days, talk to black male voters as well as do a manufacturing 115 00:08:45,500 --> 00:08:49,900 event today and talk to laborers, so anything and anywhere that they think that she can do. 116 00:08:52,133 --> 00:08:56,233 And I don't think it's a throw it at the wall and see what sticks, because it is really targeted and 117 00:08:58,533 --> 00:09:01,100 very intentional, but certainly they're trying to create a scenario so when they get to the end of 118 00:09:01,100 --> 00:09:05,233 the election, it does not feel like, well, what if we had done this or what if we had just done that? 119 00:09:05,233 --> 00:09:08,033 FRANKLIN FOER: So, Vivian, contrast that to the way the Trump campaign, I mean, 120 00:09:08,033 --> 00:09:10,833 you've given us a little bit of sense of how they're thinking about things. 121 00:09:10,833 --> 00:09:15,733 But there's a clear strategy there about adding to the coalition at the same time 122 00:09:15,733 --> 00:09:19,700 they're revving up the base. How does that contrast to the way that Trump is? 123 00:09:19,700 --> 00:09:24,700 VIVIAN SALAMA: So, all along since, even before Kamala Harris entered the race as the lead, 124 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,633 as the presidential nominee, the Trump campaign maintained that 125 00:09:29,633 --> 00:09:34,266 she would probably get a bump in the polls partly due to the enthusiasm of the party, 126 00:09:34,266 --> 00:09:39,266 but that they kept on calling it a honeymoon, that eventually it would even out. And to an extent, 127 00:09:39,266 --> 00:09:43,600 we have seen that, and they point to that very heavily. They also believe 128 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,400 that some of the groups that they were really targeting, they had made a lot of advances, 129 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:52,400 particularly with black men, as compared to previous cycles, not as compared to Democrats. 130 00:09:54,466 --> 00:09:59,033 But Donald Trump is doing better this time around than he has in previous cycles with black men. 131 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,133 They felt like they still were able to maintain a lot of those voters. A lot of black women peeled 132 00:10:06,433 --> 00:10:09,333 off and threw their support behind Harris when she became the presidential nominee. But black men, 133 00:10:11,700 --> 00:10:15,933 they believe a large number that were supporting them before she was the nominee, they still stayed 134 00:10:18,300 --> 00:10:22,066 with Trump because of his economic message. And that's where they draw the big contrast. They say, 135 00:10:22,066 --> 00:10:26,466 because of the economic message and because of his hammering on immigration in particular, 136 00:10:26,466 --> 00:10:30,900 they have maintained their base, but also managed to expand that base. 137 00:10:30,900 --> 00:10:35,233 The economy is the, they believe, that has enabled them to expand that base. 138 00:10:35,233 --> 00:10:40,133 SUSAN GLASSER: What's really remarkable about that is that it's a strategy that relies on 139 00:10:40,133 --> 00:10:45,100 people ignoring Donald Trump and his inability to communicate even basic information. Republicans, 140 00:10:47,266 --> 00:10:51,733 I mean, their success on one level is remarkable because, you know, here we are, and it's a dead 141 00:10:53,866 --> 00:10:56,366 even election, and they're, you know, polling strong on, you know, issues like the economy. 142 00:10:56,366 --> 00:11:01,233 On the other hand, Donald Trump appeared before the Chicago Economic Club this week. 143 00:11:01,233 --> 00:11:06,233 He couldn't utter a coherent expression of what his policy would be. He has, 144 00:11:07,966 --> 00:11:11,633 as you know, offered an economic platform that economists, you know, 145 00:11:13,700 --> 00:11:16,700 non-partisan economists have said would add significantly to the deficit. He's talking 146 00:11:16,700 --> 00:11:21,700 about tariffs. He just throws numbers out there. He said, oh, tariffs of as high as 1, 000 percent. 147 00:11:24,033 --> 00:11:27,433 When he's asked basic questions, he starts to talk about, you know, sunbathing on the beach and, 148 00:11:29,433 --> 00:11:33,900 you know, electric boats and things like that. And yet somehow this is translated 149 00:11:35,866 --> 00:11:40,400 through our political language into, oh, his economic policy. It's a remarkable 150 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,633 feat. It tells you about American politics right now, that so much of the country is 151 00:11:44,633 --> 00:11:48,666 willing to vote for somebody whose policy is basically, I'm better than the other person. 152 00:11:48,666 --> 00:11:53,033 VIVIAN SALAMA: A lot of it is also used through enticing slogans. So, as you know, The Wall Street 153 00:11:53,033 --> 00:11:57,733 Journal's tax reporter calls it, he calls it the no tax on something policy that Donald Trump has, 154 00:11:57,733 --> 00:12:02,700 where he said, no tax on tips, no tax on Social Security, no tax on overtime. And it's, it's 155 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,000 very enticing for voters to hear. What they don't realize is how much it could drive up the deficit, 156 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:13,000 and so -- the national debt. And so it is a big problem that Donald Trump has not yet been able 157 00:12:15,100 --> 00:12:17,400 to explain, but he goes out with the enticing slogans and people really rally behind him. 158 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,466 FRANCESCA CHAMBERS: So now, Vice President Harris has taken out her rallies more recently 159 00:12:20,466 --> 00:12:25,400 to start playing clips of Donald Trump and what he's been saying out there to try and 160 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:30,400 bring attention to some of the things that you said. But when it comes to her economic policies, 161 00:12:32,433 --> 00:12:35,133 of course, Democrats are making the argument that she's putting forward plans of what she 162 00:12:35,133 --> 00:12:40,133 would do. The voters that we've been talking to, it's just not connecting with them directly. 163 00:12:42,033 --> 00:12:43,900 FRANKLIN FOER: Yes. I want to play a clip. One of the things that she's done 164 00:12:43,900 --> 00:12:47,100 in this past week is for the first time making a vowed break with the current 165 00:12:47,100 --> 00:12:52,066 occupant of the White House. I want to listen to what she said to Bret Baier. 166 00:12:54,033 --> 00:12:56,300 KAMALA HARRIS: Let me be very clear. My presidency will not be a continuation of 167 00:12:56,300 --> 00:13:01,266 Joe Biden's presidency. And like every new president that comes into office, 168 00:13:03,366 --> 00:13:07,200 I will bring my life experiences, my professional experiences, and fresh and new ideas. 169 00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:11,600 FRANKLIN FOER: Is that too little too late? 170 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:13,966 FRANCESCA CHAMBERS: Well, she actually went a little bit further than that in an NBC interview 171 00:13:13,966 --> 00:13:18,733 today with Peter Alexander, and he asked her about Biden essentially giving her permission structure 172 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,333 to say that she'd do something different than him. And she didn't want to criticize the president. 173 00:13:23,333 --> 00:13:28,133 She said she didn't think it would be productive for their relationship. But she did go on to say 174 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,466 that her expansion of Medicare to include home health and to talk about her first time 175 00:13:35,733 --> 00:13:39,600 home buyer credit were things that she would do differently. So, she is inching towards that but, 176 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:45,866 repeatedly, she has declined to say what she would do differently from Biden. 177 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,500 But what I was referring to before in terms of it just not connecting with people is that 178 00:13:50,500 --> 00:13:55,533 voters have been saying that they just don't understand how her economic policies will help 179 00:13:55,533 --> 00:14:00,533 them personally when she goes out there and she talks about all the tax breaks and tax credits 180 00:14:02,533 --> 00:14:06,200 and talks it more of the 30,000-foot level. That isn't always connecting with someone who 181 00:14:08,300 --> 00:14:12,133 might have diabetes directly and know how she wants to cap the cost of insulin and how that 182 00:14:14,433 --> 00:14:19,400 would help them. And we've heard from voters that they feel that in their communities, 183 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:24,400 they need to hear, you know, more directly from her how it would make their lives better. 184 00:14:26,566 --> 00:14:29,500 PETER BAKER: So, I think that, of course, the difference between Biden and Harris on the home 185 00:14:29,500 --> 00:14:33,800 health care is not significant in the sense that like Biden's not going to disagree with her 186 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:38,066 saying, oh, no, I don't think you should do that. He might not have opposed himself, but he's not, 187 00:14:38,066 --> 00:14:43,066 you know, ideologically against this. So, it's not really making a huge break from Biden to say, I'm 188 00:14:45,333 --> 00:14:47,566 going to do something he didn't do. What people are looking for when they talk about a break from 189 00:14:47,566 --> 00:14:51,200 Biden is particularly what is it, what would her position be on Israel and the Middle East? 190 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:55,233 And, of course, we had the killing this week of Sinwar, the leader of Hamas. And 191 00:14:55,233 --> 00:14:59,500 what Biden quickly said was, let's use that as a way to wrap up the war. Israel, you won, declare 192 00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:04,500 victory and let's get out of this. And what a lot of people on the left, not just Arab-Americans, 193 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,500 but also younger voters, want to hear from Kamala Harris that she's going to do something 194 00:15:09,500 --> 00:15:13,233 different than Joe Biden, because they've been upset with Joe Biden for being too pro-Israel. 195 00:15:13,233 --> 00:15:17,900 But she's walking a tight line because she can't break with Biden on that without losing 196 00:15:17,900 --> 00:15:21,200 or at least risking losing people who are more pro-Israel. She's going to get hit 197 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,133 from both sides. She's literally getting hit from both sides by the same organization in 198 00:15:24,133 --> 00:15:29,133 Pennsylvania. She's putting out ads saying to the Jewish Americans, she's really not for you, 199 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,333 and to Muslim Americans saying she's really for Israel, and they're trying to play it both ways. 200 00:15:34,333 --> 00:15:38,033 SUSAN GLASSER: And, by the way, that's from Elon Musk, and that's another factor, 201 00:15:38,033 --> 00:15:43,033 you know, that I think has become very apparent in the late stages of this campaign. The fusion 202 00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:48,633 between Donald Trump and the world's richest man is, you know, even though we've seen, you know, 203 00:15:50,366 --> 00:15:54,700 the influence of money in politics, you know, forever in our politics, 204 00:15:54,700 --> 00:15:59,700 the amounts of money in Watergate paled in comparison to what we're talking about today 205 00:16:02,033 --> 00:16:05,000 is an extraordinary fusion between Donald Trump and a small handful of the wealthiest people in 206 00:16:07,266 --> 00:16:11,600 the world. The spectacle of Musk actually on stage campaigning for Trump, remarkable one, I think. 207 00:16:13,733 --> 00:16:16,400 FRANKLIN FOER: Yes. Well, this takes us back to the democracy question, of course. And as you 208 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:21,400 said earlier, the weird critique of Trump has kind of lost steam and Kamala Harris is returning back 209 00:16:23,666 --> 00:16:28,400 to this democracy argument, which she'd abandoned in the first place because it wasn't effective. 210 00:16:30,700 --> 00:16:33,500 And so, Vivian, is there any reason to believe that the democracy argument is going to catch now? 211 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,600 VIVAN SALAMA: I mean, I think Susan started the conversation by saying that people know -- maybe 212 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,400 it was Peter, sorry, that said, everyone knows who Donald Trump is at this point, 213 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:48,400 and I don't think it's going to necessarily sway people in the final two weeks. The Harris 214 00:16:50,233 --> 00:16:53,333 campaign would like to remind people, particularly with January 6th images 215 00:16:53,333 --> 00:16:57,900 and sort of the mayhem that could be attached to a Trump presidency. 216 00:16:57,900 --> 00:17:02,533 But at this point, I mean, Trump has also pushed back on that narrative so hard, he's called them 217 00:17:02,533 --> 00:17:07,533 freedom-loving patriots and has really defended a lot of the people that have gone out there who 218 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:14,233 took very violent actions in the Capitol that day. And so it's hard to imagine it swaying 219 00:17:16,566 --> 00:17:19,833 anyone at the last minute. There could be some undecided voters who are swayed at the last minute 220 00:17:19,833 --> 00:17:24,300 if something kind of clicks if they're at the polling station and see his name in front of them. 221 00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:28,833 FRANKLIN FOER: But it's worth -- I want to play some of the footage of Trump talking about 222 00:17:30,733 --> 00:17:34,700 the threat within, because I think it's worth hearing it from his own words. 223 00:17:36,766 --> 00:17:39,266 DONALD TRUMP: I think the bigger problem is the enemy from within. And we have some very 224 00:17:39,266 --> 00:17:44,266 bad people, we have some sick people, radical left lunatics. And I think they're the -- and it should 225 00:17:46,633 --> 00:17:50,433 be very easily handled, if necessary, by National Guard, or if really necessary, by the military. 226 00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:54,400 FRANKLIN FOER: Susan, you and Peter wrote an excellent book about Donald 227 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:59,400 Trump. Is that Donald Trump different than the guy who left the White House? 228 00:18:01,533 --> 00:18:03,866 SUSAN GLASSER: That Donald Trump is the man who spent the entire last year of his presidency 229 00:18:03,866 --> 00:18:08,866 trying to use the military against American people in the streets exercising their First 230 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,033 Amendment rights. Where Donald Trump has escalated the rhetoric, and, by the way, 231 00:18:13,033 --> 00:18:18,033 he's often used the language of pure dictatorship when he has called his enemies vermin, 232 00:18:20,133 --> 00:18:24,000 enemies of the people, this is the language, you know, that is resonant to anyone who studied, 233 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,833 you know, Russian history. It comes straight from the Soviet past. 234 00:18:26,833 --> 00:18:31,000 But where he's escalated, Frank, I think is he wanted to use the 235 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:36,000 American military in the summer of 2020. He was constrained by his own attorney general, 236 00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:40,400 his own defense secretary, his own chairman of the Joint Chiefs. First of all, 237 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,866 he's not going to have those kinds of people around him in a second term. And, 238 00:18:43,866 --> 00:18:48,100 second of all, he's now outright saying, if you disagree with him in the election, 239 00:18:48,100 --> 00:18:52,400 that's what he wants to call the military out for now. That's really a chilling thought. 240 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:56,466 FRANKLIN FOER: Francesca, when Kamala Harris, this week, for the first time, used the fascist 241 00:18:56,466 --> 00:19:01,466 label to describe, do you have any sense of what her thinking was when she made that term? 242 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,600 FRANCESCA CHAMBERS: I think, Peter, you were touching on a really important point 243 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,700 about this when it comes to the couch sitters and trying to get 244 00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:12,800 them out. It's not just the folks who voted for Joe Biden in 2020. There's 245 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,433 this whole other subset of people who maybe voted for Donald Trump in 2020, 246 00:19:16,433 --> 00:19:21,266 who were thinking about sitting this election out because maybe they don't want to bring themselves 247 00:19:21,266 --> 00:19:26,266 to vote for a Democrat in the election, but they also can't vote for Kamala Harris. 248 00:19:28,366 --> 00:19:32,300 And so a lot of this is aimed at trying to get those folks up off the couch and out to the 249 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,233 polls. It's those disaffected Republicans. It's the independents. We saw her this week campaign 250 00:19:40,333 --> 00:19:43,866 with Adam Kinzinger. She's been doing events with Liz Cheney as well, former members of the 251 00:19:46,066 --> 00:19:49,666 Bush administration, the Romney campaign. That at this point seems to be a big part of how they 252 00:19:51,966 --> 00:19:56,433 think they could expand their electorate, is to get the anti-Trump Republicans to vote for her. 253 00:19:58,233 --> 00:20:02,833 Now, to your point, you know, is that really going to work? Are they really 254 00:20:02,833 --> 00:20:07,000 going to be able to turn all these Nikki Haley voters in Pennsylvania 255 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:11,100 and all these other places out to vote for her? It wasn't working for 256 00:20:11,100 --> 00:20:15,700 Joe Biden. Perhaps they think that the -- it was the messenger and not the message. 257 00:20:15,700 --> 00:20:19,566 VIVAN SALAMA: I mean, Nikki Haley herself has endorsed him at this point. So -- 258 00:20:19,566 --> 00:20:21,733 FRANCESCA CHAMBERS: Right. And a number of those, and as I've written about, 259 00:20:21,733 --> 00:20:25,600 a number of those even national security-type Republicans have 260 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,433 said that they're not voting for Kamala Harris in this election.