1 00:00:01,766 --> 00:00:05,000 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want to pivot to the main subject tonight, the small 2 00:00:06,900 --> 00:00:10,266 subject of America's global alliances and the alliance for freedom that was 3 00:00:10,266 --> 00:00:15,266 established after World War II. Susan, I want you to walk us through what happened 4 00:00:17,066 --> 00:00:20,866 this week. But I want to read something that you just wrote in the New Yorker. 5 00:00:23,033 --> 00:00:26,633 One difference from Trump's first four years in office is that he has now adopted not only a 6 00:00:29,033 --> 00:00:31,800 pro-Putin take on Russia's conflict with Ukraine, but an approach to foreign policy overall, which 7 00:00:33,933 --> 00:00:37,066 echoes Putin's throwback view of the world as a playground for predatory great powers to exert 8 00:00:37,066 --> 00:00:42,033 nearly unlimited control over the smaller nations that fall within their sphere of influence. 9 00:00:43,933 --> 00:00:48,333 So, with that as backdrop describe what has happened over the last few days. 10 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,966 SUSAN GLASSER: Yes, Jeff. I think that, you know, when you look at Donald Trump's view of Ukraine, 11 00:00:53,966 --> 00:00:58,933 he's always had a very dismissive view of Ukraine. And now we see him overtly over the last week 12 00:01:01,133 --> 00:01:05,033 taking steps not only to pull back on America's support for Ukraine in the three years since 13 00:01:07,133 --> 00:01:10,533 Russia launched its full scale invasion, three years this week. The United States along with 14 00:01:10,533 --> 00:01:15,233 our European partners has provided tens of billions of dollars in military assistance. 15 00:01:15,233 --> 00:01:20,233 We have essentially kept Ukraine in the fight with Russia. Donald Trump is not only saying no 16 00:01:22,466 --> 00:01:25,300 more military assistance to Ukraine, he now seems to be overtly parroting Russia's view of the war. 17 00:01:27,566 --> 00:01:31,833 And that, I think, was a breathtaking moment that we will remember was what happened this Tuesday 18 00:01:33,900 --> 00:01:38,433 afternoon when Trump in a press conference in Mar-a-Lago explicitly said to Ukraine, 19 00:01:40,633 --> 00:01:43,900 it's your fault that Russia invaded you. How it's inexplicable, but I think it bespeaks 20 00:01:45,700 --> 00:01:50,533 a shifting role for the United States in the world where we are not only an 21 00:01:50,533 --> 00:01:55,500 uncertain partner for our European allies, for Ukraine, but many Europeans are now wondering 22 00:01:57,333 --> 00:02:01,000 whether we're outright adversaries. We seem to be taking Putin's side in 23 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:06,000 this catastrophic and deadly war, the largest war in Europe since the end of World War II. 24 00:02:08,100 --> 00:02:11,200 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Peter, go back to this quote that Susan is referring to. Basically, 25 00:02:12,900 --> 00:02:17,333 he said, despite our -- what we've seen with our eyeballs, 26 00:02:17,333 --> 00:02:22,333 that Ukraine started the war. What is the - - I'm not asking you to shrinkify the guy, 27 00:02:24,366 --> 00:02:28,866 but what's the thought process that leads him to say that Ukraine started this war? 28 00:02:30,533 --> 00:02:32,100 PETER BAKER: Well, look, he's saying you could have made a deal, 29 00:02:32,100 --> 00:02:33,633 i.e. you could have given up your territory. You could have 30 00:02:33,633 --> 00:02:36,933 been like Czechoslovakia in 1938 and said, just take Sudetenland. 31 00:02:36,933 --> 00:02:39,100 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: But why would you do that? 32 00:02:39,100 --> 00:02:41,666 PETER BAKER: Of course, you wouldn't do that. Of course, Ukraine wouldn't do that. Nobody in 33 00:02:41,666 --> 00:02:44,333 Europe would have thought that would have been a good idea. And nobody in Washington would 34 00:02:44,333 --> 00:02:49,266 have thought that would have been a good idea until now. But you heard him switch, 35 00:02:49,266 --> 00:02:54,233 as you said at the beginning, sides in this. He calls Zelenskyy a dictator without elections. 36 00:02:56,333 --> 00:03:00,466 Now, Vladimir Putin is an actual dictator who has had only farcical elections for 25 37 00:03:02,566 --> 00:03:04,700 years. Zelenskyy was elected in a free and fair election five years ago. It's true they're not 38 00:03:04,700 --> 00:03:08,033 having elections now because of martial law. They are in the middle of a war but he is a 39 00:03:08,033 --> 00:03:12,900 popularly elected official. And no, contrary to what Donald Trump said, his approval rating is not 40 00:03:12,900 --> 00:03:17,500 at 4 percent. It's around 57 percent, which, by the way, is higher than Donald Trump's. 41 00:03:17,500 --> 00:03:21,933 What did Donald Trump say about Vladimir Putin today? What did he say about him this week? Did 42 00:03:21,933 --> 00:03:26,933 he reproach him for this invasion? No, he didn't. He said it wasn't Russia's fault. Vladimir Putin 43 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,300 sent the tanks in, sent the planes in, sent the rockets in, but it's not Putin's fault. 44 00:03:32,300 --> 00:03:37,133 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Let me get -- let me ask a very specific question. Given this new reality, 45 00:03:37,133 --> 00:03:42,133 and, again, it's a febrile reality, so we don't know what next week will bring, but, 46 00:03:43,933 --> 00:03:47,866 Jonathan, can Ukraine win, by its own definition of what winning is, 47 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,766 a war in which the United States is not helping? 48 00:03:51,766 --> 00:03:56,166 JONATHAN LEMIRE: They have said themselves they can't. Zelenskyy has said that they, the nation 49 00:03:56,166 --> 00:04:01,133 is reliant on U.S. support, financially, military equipment and the rest. Europe has stepped up, 50 00:04:03,233 --> 00:04:05,133 Europe has given as much as it can to this point, but Zelenskyy has said they cannot do it. 51 00:04:05,133 --> 00:04:08,133 Now, there's some talk tonight that maybe there's some reporting tonight 52 00:04:08,133 --> 00:04:13,133 that a minerals deal of some sort might be close that would -- for some sort of US aid, 53 00:04:15,133 --> 00:04:17,133 but it's not clear if that's simply a payment for retroactively what the United 54 00:04:17,133 --> 00:04:20,100 States has already done or whether that would mean more aid is coming. 55 00:04:20,100 --> 00:04:25,100 You know, just about an hour or so ago at the White House, Trump was asked if Putin was a 56 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,266 dictator, refused to answer the question. He has not done so again. We have seen time 57 00:04:29,266 --> 00:04:33,800 and time again, he has been deferential to the Russian version of this conflict. 58 00:04:35,833 --> 00:04:39,000 And what we've seen here, taken in tandem with what Vice President Vance had to say 59 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:43,833 at the Munich Security Conference in recent days, seems to be a shift of the complete 60 00:04:43,833 --> 00:04:47,633 approach to the United States, not just to Russia but to our longtime European allies. 61 00:04:47,633 --> 00:04:50,266 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Jonathan, I want to stay with you, and I want to show you 62 00:04:50,266 --> 00:04:55,266 a clip from 2018 of a press conference with Donald Trump and -- featuring Donald Trump, 63 00:04:58,266 --> 00:05:01,133 Vladimir Putin, and Jonathan Lemire with a different haircut. 64 00:05:01,133 --> 00:05:03,000 JONATHAN LEMIRE: Yes, we're all younger then. 65 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,500 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We'll just watch this for a minute and we'll talk about it. 66 00:05:06,500 --> 00:05:09,000 JONATHAN LEMIRE: President Putin denied having anything to do with the election 67 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:14,000 interference in 2016. Every U.S. intelligence agency has concluded that Russia did. What, 68 00:05:15,466 --> 00:05:19,066 who -- my first question for you, sir, is who do you believe? 69 00:05:19,066 --> 00:05:23,000 DONALD TRUMP, U.S. President: I have President Putin. He just said it's not 70 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:27,600 Russia. I will say this, I don't see any reason why it would be. President 71 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:32,600 Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today. 72 00:05:34,666 --> 00:05:38,833 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That was a hinge moment in history, it turns out. That was a very -- it 73 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:46,200 was a very important question that you asked. And the answer suggests that the 74 00:05:48,166 --> 00:05:52,533 reality this week is not a new reality, that this is where he's been all along. 75 00:05:52,533 --> 00:05:57,533 JONATHAN LEMIRE: Yes, he is consistent in his approach to Putin. You know, he has put point 76 00:05:59,633 --> 00:06:02,533 blank right then, who'd he believe? The U.S. intelligence agencies or Moscow? He picked 77 00:06:04,833 --> 00:06:07,500 Putin. And I think we're also seeing there's a personal dimension to what we've seen this week, 78 00:06:07,500 --> 00:06:12,500 where it's not just that Trump is deferential and seems to have respect for Putin, but has none of 79 00:06:14,466 --> 00:06:18,666 it for Zelenskyy, who he called a, I believe, moderately successful comedian in a Truth 80 00:06:20,933 --> 00:06:24,100 Social post a few days ago, who has clearly had personal animosity since his first term in office. 81 00:06:26,100 --> 00:06:30,000 Well, remember, let's remember, he pushed Zelenskyy to dig up dirt on Joe Biden, 82 00:06:32,033 --> 00:06:35,233 then-Vice President Biden, and his family, thinking that it would be allegations of 83 00:06:35,233 --> 00:06:39,466 corruption in Ukraine that he could use against him in that upcoming presidential election. That 84 00:06:39,466 --> 00:06:44,466 ended up leading to Trump's first impeachment trial because he withheld military aid. So, he has 85 00:06:46,900 --> 00:06:49,833 had personal animosity towards Zelenskyy as much as some sort of, to a degree, affection for Putin. 86 00:06:51,900 --> 00:06:55,233 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes. Peter and Susan, I want to ask you, you're both former Moscow 87 00:06:55,233 --> 00:07:00,266 correspondents. You have a lot in common. You might want to think about getting married. You 88 00:07:02,733 --> 00:07:07,733 both spent a lot of time, and you've written extensively, including books, 89 00:07:09,866 --> 00:07:13,033 on this, what is the attraction Donald Trump has for Vladimir Putin. Go as deep as you can. 90 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,800 PETER BAKER: Well, look, this is a central mystery still to this day, 91 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:24,066 eight years after his first election to president. We don't really have a very convincing answer. 92 00:07:24,066 --> 00:07:29,066 If you ask people around him, who spent time with him, you get two answers. One he loves strongmen. 93 00:07:31,166 --> 00:07:34,233 He loves people who are authoritarians. He loves Xi Jinping of China, Erdogan of Turkey, 94 00:07:34,233 --> 00:07:39,233 Sisi of Egypt. He called my favorite dictator, that he has some sort of, 95 00:07:41,533 --> 00:07:44,466 you know, a relationship, or identification, perhaps, with people he perceived to be strongmen. 96 00:07:46,233 --> 00:07:48,333 The other answer you get from people around him is money, that in the end, 97 00:07:48,333 --> 00:07:52,400 Russia was the golden chalice he never quite got, that he wanted to build there, 98 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:57,066 he wanted to make a lot of money there, and he therefore was, you know, catering or kowtowing 99 00:07:57,066 --> 00:08:02,066 to Putin as part of a years-long effort to try to build in Moscow that never actually worked. 100 00:08:04,166 --> 00:08:06,500 SUSAN GLASSER: Yes. I mean, I think the other thing to, to note here is that he has Putin's 101 00:08:06,500 --> 00:08:11,500 view of the world. And, you know, from his perspective, Russia crushing its neighbor and 102 00:08:13,566 --> 00:08:18,433 incorporating it back into the boundaries of the former Soviet Union makes perfect sense. 103 00:08:20,633 --> 00:08:24,433 Look at how Donald Trump is threatening Canada, our very, very friendly neighbor to the north, 104 00:08:26,333 --> 00:08:29,900 and saying that it should become our 51st state. When Vladimir Putin says, 105 00:08:31,966 --> 00:08:35,233 well, you know, Ukraine doesn't have a right to exist as an independent entity, I think, 106 00:08:36,966 --> 00:08:39,433 that, you know, is something deeply ingrained in Donald Trump as well. 107 00:08:39,433 --> 00:08:44,433 But, frankly, I don't think the explanations are sufficient, Jeff. It's true that he has 108 00:08:46,233 --> 00:08:49,866 a generic liking for strongmen, but it's also true that he has had a fixation on 109 00:08:51,900 --> 00:08:56,033 Russia and on Putin for a very long time. There was a mash note that Donald Trump 110 00:08:56,033 --> 00:09:00,900 wrote to Vladimir Putin when he appeared as TIME Magazine's Man of the Year many, 111 00:09:00,900 --> 00:09:05,900 many years ago before Donald Trump even entered the White House. He had a very specific, you know, 112 00:09:08,166 --> 00:09:12,733 kind of admiration for Vladimir Putin that even exists outside of his time in the political realm. 113 00:09:14,766 --> 00:09:19,700 But, again, you know, let's not psychoanalyze Donald Trump. Let's look at his actions, 114 00:09:21,500 --> 00:09:24,933 which are remarkable, jarring, very consequential, and in many ways, 115 00:09:26,633 --> 00:09:28,833 very un-American, the statements that he's made this week. I don't 116 00:09:28,833 --> 00:09:33,833 believe that there's a president of any of our lifetimes, Republican or Democrat, 117 00:09:35,933 --> 00:09:38,666 who would say such things about a murderous dictator in the way that Donald Trump has. 118 00:09:38,666 --> 00:09:43,666 And I think it's very important to be clear about that and also to recognize that there are so many 119 00:09:45,700 --> 00:09:49,466 people who have been, you know, sort of casting the fog of like, well, maybe Donald Trump, 120 00:09:51,500 --> 00:09:54,300 he's going to be a Reagan-esque Republican, he's going to support Ukraine. Let's just say, 121 00:09:54,300 --> 00:09:59,300 once and for all, to cut through the kind of spin that many of Trump's enablers 122 00:10:01,066 --> 00:10:03,233 have been having and to sort of say, like, yes, Donald Trump has been very 123 00:10:03,233 --> 00:10:08,100 clear for many years now about preferring Russia and preferring Vladimir Putin. 124 00:10:08,100 --> 00:10:11,700 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Can I ask all three of you a question? Is there -- has there been, 125 00:10:11,700 --> 00:10:16,700 or is there now, a democratically-elected leader of an American ally that Donald Trump respects? 126 00:10:24,300 --> 00:10:27,300 JONATHAN LEMIRE: I think our silence says a lot. We're all racking our brains. 127 00:10:27,300 --> 00:10:28,633 PETER BAKER: Shinzo Abe of Japan -- 128 00:10:28,633 --> 00:10:29,900 JONATHAN LEMIRE: He liked him. 129 00:10:29,900 --> 00:10:31,233 PETER BAKER: -- did okay in the first term. 130 00:10:31,233 --> 00:10:32,066 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: What was the secret there? 131 00:10:32,066 --> 00:10:33,200 JONATHAN LEMIRE: Golf. 132 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:34,433 PETER BAKER: Golf, flattery, yes. 133 00:10:34,433 --> 00:10:36,033 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Golf and flattery. 134 00:10:36,033 --> 00:10:38,233 PETER BAKER: Yes. We reported our book. In fact -- 135 00:10:38,233 --> 00:10:40,966 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I'm asking for deep psychoanalysis and I'm getting golf and flattery. 136 00:10:40,966 --> 00:10:43,833 PETER BAKER: Well, this is the best. So in our book, we reported -- yes, and we reported that 137 00:10:43,833 --> 00:10:47,966 Trump -- remember, Shinzo Abe actually nominated Trump for the Nobel Peace prize. In our book, 138 00:10:47,966 --> 00:10:52,666 we reported that Trump personally asked him to do it, right? Would you please nominate me? 139 00:10:52,666 --> 00:10:56,100 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And, Peter, I've asked you for the same favor any number of times, yes. 140 00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:58,233 PETER BAKER: It's going to be in the mail. 141 00:10:58,233 --> 00:11:02,666 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So, Trump asked Shinzo Abe and Abe, unlike Zelenskyy -- I mean, 142 00:11:04,433 --> 00:11:07,800 obviously, it's a sillier request, but Abe said he wanted to help. 143 00:11:09,900 --> 00:11:11,933 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Is there anyone else, anyone currently? Shinzo Abe's gone, obviously. 144 00:11:11,933 --> 00:11:14,400 JONATHAN LEMIRE: No. I mean, he was okay with Porsche Johnson for a stretch, but -- 145 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:15,733 PETER BAKER: That's about it. 146 00:11:15,733 --> 00:11:16,200 JONATHAN LEMIRE: Yes, that's about it. Yes. 147 00:11:18,266 --> 00:11:22,200 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: What is it about democratically elected leaders that turns him off? 148 00:11:23,966 --> 00:11:26,266 JONATHAN LEMIRE: And that -- yes, and that's where he's picking the fights 149 00:11:26,266 --> 00:11:29,633 right now. That's where the tariffs are coming, China accepted, like he's targeting the allies 150 00:11:29,633 --> 00:11:32,066 far more than America's traditional adversaries. 151 00:11:32,066 --> 00:11:36,533 And what's so also a part two of this, what's so interesting, is he's a member of the Republican 152 00:11:36,533 --> 00:11:41,100 Party and the Republican Party, you know, was the Russia hawks. They pride themselves 153 00:11:41,100 --> 00:11:46,066 on being tough on national security, being tough on Moscow. We've seen a little bit of 154 00:11:48,266 --> 00:11:51,200 pushback this week. Some sort of suggestion from some Republican senators saying, well, 155 00:11:53,300 --> 00:11:56,266 we don't think Vladimir Putin's a good guy, but very little outright criticism of Trump, 156 00:11:58,333 --> 00:12:00,400 a little bit from Senator Tillis yesterday, a little bit from Senator Wicker. But beyond 157 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,866 that, it is simply, maybe Trump's misinformed rather than he's wrong. 158 00:12:04,866 --> 00:12:07,000 PETER BAKER: One name, by the way, Benjamin Netanyahu, just to mention. 159 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,700 SUSAN GLASSER: Well, he has a conflicted relationship with that. 160 00:12:10,700 --> 00:12:12,566 PETER BAKER: He does. 161 00:12:12,566 --> 00:12:14,466 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Conflicted and also a semi-strongman who's trying 162 00:12:14,466 --> 00:12:16,633 to change Israeli politics to make it easier for him to stay in power. 163 00:12:16,633 --> 00:12:20,400 SUSAN GLASSER: Well, and, again, I just -- I think this point that's really important about 164 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,600 these Republican officials is that some of them may have more traditional Republican views of 165 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:29,600 foreign policy and of Russia. But when it comes to a choice between their, quote/unquote, deeply held 166 00:12:31,833 --> 00:12:34,933 principles and Trump, they tended to use Trump, and I think Trump humiliated essentially his new 167 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,100 national security adviser, Mike Waltz. There's an extraordinary moment in the White House briefing 168 00:12:40,100 --> 00:12:45,100 room just yesterday in which Waltz's own words were quoted to him where he called, essentially 169 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,266 Trump, a murder, murderous thug who was responsible for the war. They said, sir, do you -- 170 00:12:51,266 --> 00:12:52,700 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Putin. 171 00:12:52,700 --> 00:12:54,933 SUSAN GLASSER: Sorry, Putin. And they said, sir, 172 00:12:54,933 --> 00:12:58,500 do you still agree with this? And he said, no, I agree with Donald Trump on everything. 173 00:13:00,700 --> 00:13:04,100 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want to read something from something that Vice President J.D. Vance 174 00:13:06,033 --> 00:13:09,400 said the other day, one of the strongest arguments against or for not staying the 175 00:13:12,733 --> 00:13:17,733 course with Ukraine. He tweeted out, while our, while our Western European 176 00:13:20,933 --> 00:13:24,833 allies' security has benefited greatly from the generosity of the United States, 177 00:13:24,833 --> 00:13:28,533 they pursue domestic policies on migration and censorship that offend the sensibilities 178 00:13:28,533 --> 00:13:33,533 of most Americans, and defense policies that assume continued overreliance. 179 00:13:35,633 --> 00:13:39,033 Now, put aside for a moment the question of the European cultural differences and what 180 00:13:39,033 --> 00:13:44,033 they do spend money on domestically. It's also true that America's European allies, 181 00:13:46,066 --> 00:13:50,666 for decades, have underspent while we have overspent on their defense. And so I'm just, 182 00:13:53,266 --> 00:13:57,933 you know, wondering, I mean, to give their arguments credit, could all of this rhetoric, 183 00:13:57,933 --> 00:14:02,900 all of these threats from the Trump administration actually lead the Europeans to build up their own 184 00:14:05,033 --> 00:14:09,500 defenses in a way that's going to be less reliant on the American soldier coming to their rescue? 185 00:14:11,566 --> 00:14:14,466 PETER BAKER: Yes, that may be the ultimate response here. But, look, the person who 186 00:14:14,466 --> 00:14:19,466 made Europe decide to increase their military spending in the last few years was Vladimir Putin, 187 00:14:21,633 --> 00:14:24,466 right? Trump badgered the NATO allies time and time again in his first term to spend more, 188 00:14:24,466 --> 00:14:27,800 spend more, spend more. A few of them did, but, frankly, by the time he left office, 189 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:31,900 still only about a half dozen of the allies met the 2 percent of GDP goal. 190 00:14:31,900 --> 00:14:35,733 By the time Biden left office after the full scale invasion, 191 00:14:35,733 --> 00:14:38,266 suddenly it's now two thirds of the alliance is meeting that goal, 192 00:14:38,266 --> 00:14:41,500 not because of Trump, and not really because of Biden, but because of Putin. 193 00:14:41,500 --> 00:14:44,633 SUSAN GLASSER: Yes. But, Jeff, I think you're right. This is an important point to make, 194 00:14:44,633 --> 00:14:48,800 that presidents of both parties, actually going back to Barack Obama, and remember his 195 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,866 defense secretary, Bob Gates, they pushed the European allies. They said, you know, 196 00:14:52,866 --> 00:14:57,866 you can no longer rely upon an open ended American security commitment. And, you know, this was a 197 00:15:00,233 --> 00:15:04,100 theme for quite some time and that's what led to the allies making this agreement, that by 2024, 198 00:15:06,366 --> 00:15:10,433 they would agree to spend a significant percent of their GDP on defense. Now, Donald Trump wants 199 00:15:12,733 --> 00:15:16,700 to raise that to 5 percent of GDP to be spent on defense. And by the way, even the United States 200 00:15:19,033 --> 00:15:23,300 does not spend anywhere near that. Actually we're under 4 percent. I believe it's about 3.8 percent. 201 00:15:25,233 --> 00:15:28,933 SUSAN GLASSER: So, you know, the bottom line is that Russia's threat and its revision 202 00:15:31,066 --> 00:15:34,233 to the European order, that's going to cost everybody more money. And so I think you see 203 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,400 a real shift. The question I have is not only is the United States going to move away from Ukraine, 204 00:15:42,366 --> 00:15:46,400 but what about our NATO partners in Eastern Europe? What about the three Baltic states? 205 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,100 What about Poland? Is their security now compromised by Donald Trump as well? 206 00:15:51,100 --> 00:15:55,100 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want to come to that in one second, but, Jonathan, I want to ask you this 207 00:15:55,100 --> 00:16:00,166 from the perspective of a White House reporter. There are a lot of different ideologies stuffed 208 00:16:02,166 --> 00:16:06,066 into the Trump team. There's a conservative internationalist, there's kind of muscular 209 00:16:08,233 --> 00:16:11,300 interventionist, there's isolationist. How does that stew pot, how does that work in there? 210 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,466 JONATHAN LEMIRE: Right now, it's confused. I mean, not just the national security adviser, 211 00:16:16,466 --> 00:16:21,466 but the secretary of state, Marco Rubio, as Senator, was very pro-NATO, very, you 212 00:16:23,866 --> 00:16:26,833 know -- and a Russia hawk. And this week, we have seen exactly the opposite. When he and his, some 213 00:16:26,833 --> 00:16:31,500 of his colleagues spoke to reporters in Riyadh after the first round of Russian-U.S. talks, 214 00:16:31,500 --> 00:16:36,500 talks that, from which Ukraine was excluded, no mention at all of the atrocities Russia has 215 00:16:38,733 --> 00:16:42,466 committed, no mention of all of the war crimes, the charges against Vladimir Putin, instead about 216 00:16:42,466 --> 00:16:47,466 the transactional economic opportunities, about a better relationship between Moscow and Washington. 217 00:16:48,833 --> 00:16:51,466 So, there is diversity there. We saw Keith Kellogg, 218 00:16:51,466 --> 00:16:56,466 someone who is much tougher on Russia, today, tweeted praising Zelenskyy, 219 00:16:58,366 --> 00:17:02,300 flying in the face of what Trump has said about him this week. But, Kellogg also 220 00:17:02,300 --> 00:17:05,800 potentially sidelined from some of the Russian talks. We know how unpopular he is in Moscow. 221 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:10,800 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You covered the first months of the first Trump term, and it's very different, 222 00:17:12,900 --> 00:17:16,033 the Mattises, Pompeos, and so on, Rex Tillersons, the adults. You're saying they're gone? 223 00:17:17,933 --> 00:17:21,300 JONATHAN LEMIRE: Well, the guardrails are not in place. And the adults who 224 00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:24,333 are in the room right now, back then, had success pushing back. 225 00:17:24,333 --> 00:17:26,500 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I mean, Marco Rubio might be an adult, 226 00:17:26,500 --> 00:17:31,233 but he's not arguing his -- Trump's worldview and he's not in the room. That's interesting. 227 00:17:33,066 --> 00:17:36,633 I want to come back to something, just a final round of something that was 228 00:17:36,633 --> 00:17:41,100 just brought up. This is a quote from the Polish foreign minister, Radek Sikorski, 229 00:17:41,100 --> 00:17:46,066 who said recently that the credibility of the United States depends on how this war ends, 230 00:17:46,066 --> 00:17:50,933 not just the Trump administration, the United States itself. Do you agree? 231 00:17:50,933 --> 00:17:55,900 JONATHAN LEMIRE: Yes, I think so. There's such a dramatic course correction from where we were, 232 00:17:55,900 --> 00:18:00,400 from what President Biden said, how he pledged that they would -- the U.S. would stay with 233 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:05,100 Ukraine until the end. And going back further, this is about everything that's been in place 234 00:18:05,100 --> 00:18:10,100 since World War II. And it seems that the Trump -- president's view is wildly 235 00:18:12,166 --> 00:18:15,833 different and seems like, yes, he wants the war to end, but he's not doing so in a way 236 00:18:15,833 --> 00:18:19,866 consistent with what has been traditional American values and foreign policy approach. 237 00:18:19,866 --> 00:18:21,900 PETER BAKER: I think the message from Sikorski, people like them, 238 00:18:23,666 --> 00:18:27,533 is don't forget Kabul. You don't want to have Kabul happened on your watch, 239 00:18:29,333 --> 00:18:31,266 right? He's trying to keep them from completely abandoning Ukraine. 240 00:18:31,266 --> 00:18:34,266 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You mean a chaotic withdrawal, a chaotic collapse of Kyiv? 241 00:18:34,266 --> 00:18:36,733 PETER BAKER: Exactly. You've set Ukraine on 242 00:18:36,733 --> 00:18:41,333 the path to what's happened in Afghanistan under Biden. 243 00:18:41,333 --> 00:18:46,333 You hear that from some Trump people saying that's the one caveat as he is catering to 244 00:18:48,300 --> 00:18:50,766 Putin is that they don't want a disastrous ending. That's the one thing he fears. 245 00:18:50,766 --> 00:18:55,766 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Susan, does Donald Trump actually care if Russian tanks roll into Kyiv? 246 00:18:58,433 --> 00:19:02,366 SUSAN GLASSER: No. JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You want to expand on that? 247 00:19:02,366 --> 00:19:05,266 SUSAN GLASSER: Look, Jeff, he's been very clear. This is Russia's sphere 248 00:19:05,266 --> 00:19:10,133 of influence. He thinks that Russia has a right to do whatever it wants in its sphere 249 00:19:10,133 --> 00:19:15,133 of influence. He prefers Vladimir Putin. He's at the point of almost openly advocating this week 250 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:21,100 for Volodymyr Zelenskyy's ouster, whether it's through political means or otherwise. 251 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:24,333 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So, in other words, he's scared of the pictures, 252 00:19:24,333 --> 00:19:28,700 but he actually believes that Ukraine belongs to Russia? 253 00:19:28,700 --> 00:19:33,700 SUSAN GLASSER: I believe I -- it seems to me that he has a regime change policy for Ukraine. 254 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,866 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, that's a heavy note to end on, but I'm sure we'll be talking about this 255 00:19:38,866 --> 00:19:43,466 in the weeks ahead. We are going to have to leave it there for now, but I want to 256 00:19:43,466 --> 00:19:48,000 thank our panelists for joining us. I want to thank you at home for joining us as well.