WEBVTT 00:01.766 --> 00:05.000 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want to pivot to the main subject tonight, the small 00:06.900 --> 00:10.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% subject of America's global alliances and the alliance for freedom that was 00:10.266 --> 00:15.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% established after World War II. Susan, I want you to walk us through what happened 00:17.066 --> 00:20.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% this week. But I want to read something that you just wrote in the New Yorker. 00:23.033 --> 00:26.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% One difference from Trump's first four years in office is that he has now adopted not only a 00:29.033 --> 00:31.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% pro-Putin take on Russia's conflict with Ukraine, but an approach to foreign policy overall, which 00:33.933 --> 00:37.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% echoes Putin's throwback view of the world as a playground for predatory great powers to exert 00:37.066 --> 00:42.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% nearly unlimited control over the smaller nations that fall within their sphere of influence. 00:43.933 --> 00:48.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, with that as backdrop describe what has happened over the last few days. 00:50.600 --> 00:53.966 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% SUSAN GLASSER: Yes, Jeff. I think that, you know, when you look at Donald Trump's view of Ukraine, 00:53.966 --> 00:58.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% he's always had a very dismissive view of Ukraine. And now we see him overtly over the last week 01:01.133 --> 01:05.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% taking steps not only to pull back on America's support for Ukraine in the three years since 01:07.133 --> 01:10.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Russia launched its full scale invasion, three years this week. The United States along with 01:10.533 --> 01:15.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% our European partners has provided tens of billions of dollars in military assistance. 01:15.233 --> 01:20.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We have essentially kept Ukraine in the fight with Russia. Donald Trump is not only saying no 01:22.466 --> 01:25.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% more military assistance to Ukraine, he now seems to be overtly parroting Russia's view of the war. 01:27.566 --> 01:31.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And that, I think, was a breathtaking moment that we will remember was what happened this Tuesday 01:33.900 --> 01:38.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% afternoon when Trump in a press conference in Mar-a-Lago explicitly said to Ukraine, 01:40.633 --> 01:43.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% it's your fault that Russia invaded you. How it's inexplicable, but I think it bespeaks 01:45.700 --> 01:50.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% a shifting role for the United States in the world where we are not only an 01:50.533 --> 01:55.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% uncertain partner for our European allies, for Ukraine, but many Europeans are now wondering 01:57.333 --> 02:01.000 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% whether we're outright adversaries. We seem to be taking Putin's side in 02:01.000 --> 02:06.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% this catastrophic and deadly war, the largest war in Europe since the end of World War II. 02:08.100 --> 02:11.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Peter, go back to this quote that Susan is referring to. Basically, 02:12.900 --> 02:17.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he said, despite our -- what we've seen with our eyeballs, 02:17.333 --> 02:22.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that Ukraine started the war. What is the - - I'm not asking you to shrinkify the guy, 02:24.366 --> 02:28.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but what's the thought process that leads him to say that Ukraine started this war? 02:30.533 --> 02:32.100 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% PETER BAKER: Well, look, he's saying you could have made a deal, 02:32.100 --> 02:33.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% i.e. you could have given up your territory. You could have 02:33.633 --> 02:36.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% been like Czechoslovakia in 1938 and said, just take Sudetenland. 02:36.933 --> 02:39.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: But why would you do that? 02:39.100 --> 02:41.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% PETER BAKER: Of course, you wouldn't do that. Of course, Ukraine wouldn't do that. Nobody in 02:41.666 --> 02:44.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Europe would have thought that would have been a good idea. And nobody in Washington would 02:44.333 --> 02:49.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% have thought that would have been a good idea until now. But you heard him switch, 02:49.266 --> 02:54.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% as you said at the beginning, sides in this. He calls Zelenskyy a dictator without elections. 02:56.333 --> 03:00.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Now, Vladimir Putin is an actual dictator who has had only farcical elections for 25 03:02.566 --> 03:04.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% years. Zelenskyy was elected in a free and fair election five years ago. It's true they're not 03:04.700 --> 03:08.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% having elections now because of martial law. They are in the middle of a war but he is a 03:08.033 --> 03:12.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% popularly elected official. And no, contrary to what Donald Trump said, his approval rating is not 03:12.900 --> 03:17.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% at 4 percent. It's around 57 percent, which, by the way, is higher than Donald Trump's. 03:17.500 --> 03:21.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% What did Donald Trump say about Vladimir Putin today? What did he say about him this week? Did 03:21.933 --> 03:26.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% he reproach him for this invasion? No, he didn't. He said it wasn't Russia's fault. Vladimir Putin 03:29.000 --> 03:32.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% sent the tanks in, sent the planes in, sent the rockets in, but it's not Putin's fault. 03:32.300 --> 03:37.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Let me get -- let me ask a very specific question. Given this new reality, 03:37.133 --> 03:42.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and, again, it's a febrile reality, so we don't know what next week will bring, but, 03:43.933 --> 03:47.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Jonathan, can Ukraine win, by its own definition of what winning is, 03:49.200 --> 03:51.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a war in which the United States is not helping? 03:51.766 --> 03:56.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JONATHAN LEMIRE: They have said themselves they can't. Zelenskyy has said that they, the nation 03:56.166 --> 04:01.133 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% is reliant on U.S. support, financially, military equipment and the rest. Europe has stepped up, 04:03.233 --> 04:05.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Europe has given as much as it can to this point, but Zelenskyy has said they cannot do it. 04:05.133 --> 04:08.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Now, there's some talk tonight that maybe there's some reporting tonight 04:08.133 --> 04:13.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that a minerals deal of some sort might be close that would -- for some sort of US aid, 04:15.133 --> 04:17.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% but it's not clear if that's simply a payment for retroactively what the United 04:17.133 --> 04:20.100 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% States has already done or whether that would mean more aid is coming. 04:20.100 --> 04:25.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% You know, just about an hour or so ago at the White House, Trump was asked if Putin was a 04:27.200 --> 04:29.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% dictator, refused to answer the question. He has not done so again. We have seen time 04:29.266 --> 04:33.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and time again, he has been deferential to the Russian version of this conflict. 04:35.833 --> 04:39.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And what we've seen here, taken in tandem with what Vice President Vance had to say 04:39.000 --> 04:43.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% at the Munich Security Conference in recent days, seems to be a shift of the complete 04:43.833 --> 04:47.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% approach to the United States, not just to Russia but to our longtime European allies. 04:47.633 --> 04:50.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Jonathan, I want to stay with you, and I want to show you 04:50.266 --> 04:55.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a clip from 2018 of a press conference with Donald Trump and -- featuring Donald Trump, 04:58.266 --> 05:01.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Vladimir Putin, and Jonathan Lemire with a different haircut. 05:01.133 --> 05:03.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JONATHAN LEMIRE: Yes, we're all younger then. 05:03.000 --> 05:06.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We'll just watch this for a minute and we'll talk about it. 05:06.500 --> 05:09.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JONATHAN LEMIRE: President Putin denied having anything to do with the election 05:09.000 --> 05:14.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% interference in 2016. Every U.S. intelligence agency has concluded that Russia did. What, 05:15.466 --> 05:19.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who -- my first question for you, sir, is who do you believe? 05:19.066 --> 05:23.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% DONALD TRUMP, U.S. President: I have President Putin. He just said it's not 05:23.000 --> 05:27.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Russia. I will say this, I don't see any reason why it would be. President 05:27.600 --> 05:32.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today. 05:34.666 --> 05:38.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That was a hinge moment in history, it turns out. That was a very -- it 05:41.200 --> 05:46.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% was a very important question that you asked. And the answer suggests that the 05:48.166 --> 05:52.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% reality this week is not a new reality, that this is where he's been all along. 05:52.533 --> 05:57.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JONATHAN LEMIRE: Yes, he is consistent in his approach to Putin. You know, he has put point 05:59.633 --> 06:02.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% blank right then, who'd he believe? The U.S. intelligence agencies or Moscow? He picked 06:04.833 --> 06:07.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Putin. And I think we're also seeing there's a personal dimension to what we've seen this week, 06:07.500 --> 06:12.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% where it's not just that Trump is deferential and seems to have respect for Putin, but has none of 06:14.466 --> 06:18.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% it for Zelenskyy, who he called a, I believe, moderately successful comedian in a Truth 06:20.933 --> 06:24.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Social post a few days ago, who has clearly had personal animosity since his first term in office. 06:26.100 --> 06:30.000 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Well, remember, let's remember, he pushed Zelenskyy to dig up dirt on Joe Biden, 06:32.033 --> 06:35.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% then-Vice President Biden, and his family, thinking that it would be allegations of 06:35.233 --> 06:39.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% corruption in Ukraine that he could use against him in that upcoming presidential election. That 06:39.466 --> 06:44.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% ended up leading to Trump's first impeachment trial because he withheld military aid. So, he has 06:46.900 --> 06:49.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% had personal animosity towards Zelenskyy as much as some sort of, to a degree, affection for Putin. 06:51.900 --> 06:55.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes. Peter and Susan, I want to ask you, you're both former Moscow 06:55.233 --> 07:00.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% correspondents. You have a lot in common. You might want to think about getting married. You 07:02.733 --> 07:07.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% both spent a lot of time, and you've written extensively, including books, 07:09.866 --> 07:13.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% on this, what is the attraction Donald Trump has for Vladimir Putin. Go as deep as you can. 07:17.400 --> 07:19.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% PETER BAKER: Well, look, this is a central mystery still to this day, 07:19.800 --> 07:24.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% eight years after his first election to president. We don't really have a very convincing answer. 07:24.066 --> 07:29.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% If you ask people around him, who spent time with him, you get two answers. One he loves strongmen. 07:31.166 --> 07:34.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% He loves people who are authoritarians. He loves Xi Jinping of China, Erdogan of Turkey, 07:34.233 --> 07:39.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Sisi of Egypt. He called my favorite dictator, that he has some sort of, 07:41.533 --> 07:44.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% you know, a relationship, or identification, perhaps, with people he perceived to be strongmen. 07:46.233 --> 07:48.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% The other answer you get from people around him is money, that in the end, 07:48.333 --> 07:52.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Russia was the golden chalice he never quite got, that he wanted to build there, 07:52.400 --> 07:57.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% he wanted to make a lot of money there, and he therefore was, you know, catering or kowtowing 07:57.066 --> 08:02.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to Putin as part of a years-long effort to try to build in Moscow that never actually worked. 08:04.166 --> 08:06.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% SUSAN GLASSER: Yes. I mean, I think the other thing to, to note here is that he has Putin's 08:06.500 --> 08:11.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% view of the world. And, you know, from his perspective, Russia crushing its neighbor and 08:13.566 --> 08:18.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% incorporating it back into the boundaries of the former Soviet Union makes perfect sense. 08:20.633 --> 08:24.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Look at how Donald Trump is threatening Canada, our very, very friendly neighbor to the north, 08:26.333 --> 08:29.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and saying that it should become our 51st state. When Vladimir Putin says, 08:31.966 --> 08:35.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% well, you know, Ukraine doesn't have a right to exist as an independent entity, I think, 08:36.966 --> 08:39.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% that, you know, is something deeply ingrained in Donald Trump as well. 08:39.433 --> 08:44.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But, frankly, I don't think the explanations are sufficient, Jeff. It's true that he has 08:46.233 --> 08:49.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a generic liking for strongmen, but it's also true that he has had a fixation on 08:51.900 --> 08:56.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Russia and on Putin for a very long time. There was a mash note that Donald Trump 08:56.033 --> 09:00.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% wrote to Vladimir Putin when he appeared as TIME Magazine's Man of the Year many, 09:00.900 --> 09:05.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% many years ago before Donald Trump even entered the White House. He had a very specific, you know, 09:08.166 --> 09:12.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% kind of admiration for Vladimir Putin that even exists outside of his time in the political realm. 09:14.766 --> 09:19.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But, again, you know, let's not psychoanalyze Donald Trump. Let's look at his actions, 09:21.500 --> 09:24.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% which are remarkable, jarring, very consequential, and in many ways, 09:26.633 --> 09:28.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% very un-American, the statements that he's made this week. I don't 09:28.833 --> 09:33.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% believe that there's a president of any of our lifetimes, Republican or Democrat, 09:35.933 --> 09:38.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% who would say such things about a murderous dictator in the way that Donald Trump has. 09:38.666 --> 09:43.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And I think it's very important to be clear about that and also to recognize that there are so many 09:45.700 --> 09:49.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% people who have been, you know, sort of casting the fog of like, well, maybe Donald Trump, 09:51.500 --> 09:54.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% he's going to be a Reagan-esque Republican, he's going to support Ukraine. Let's just say, 09:54.300 --> 09:59.300 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% once and for all, to cut through the kind of spin that many of Trump's enablers 10:01.066 --> 10:03.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% have been having and to sort of say, like, yes, Donald Trump has been very 10:03.233 --> 10:08.100 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% clear for many years now about preferring Russia and preferring Vladimir Putin. 10:08.100 --> 10:11.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Can I ask all three of you a question? Is there -- has there been, 10:11.700 --> 10:16.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% or is there now, a democratically-elected leader of an American ally that Donald Trump respects? 10:24.300 --> 10:27.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JONATHAN LEMIRE: I think our silence says a lot. We're all racking our brains. 10:27.300 --> 10:28.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% PETER BAKER: Shinzo Abe of Japan -- 10:28.633 --> 10:29.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% JONATHAN LEMIRE: He liked him. 10:29.900 --> 10:31.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% PETER BAKER: -- did okay in the first term. 10:31.233 --> 10:32.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: What was the secret there? 10:32.066 --> 10:33.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JONATHAN LEMIRE: Golf. 10:33.200 --> 10:34.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% PETER BAKER: Golf, flattery, yes. 10:34.433 --> 10:36.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Golf and flattery. 10:36.033 --> 10:38.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% PETER BAKER: Yes. We reported our book. In fact -- 10:38.233 --> 10:40.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I'm asking for deep psychoanalysis and I'm getting golf and flattery. 10:40.966 --> 10:43.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% PETER BAKER: Well, this is the best. So in our book, we reported -- yes, and we reported that 10:43.833 --> 10:47.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Trump -- remember, Shinzo Abe actually nominated Trump for the Nobel Peace prize. In our book, 10:47.966 --> 10:52.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% we reported that Trump personally asked him to do it, right? Would you please nominate me? 10:52.666 --> 10:56.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And, Peter, I've asked you for the same favor any number of times, yes. 10:56.100 --> 10:58.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% PETER BAKER: It's going to be in the mail. 10:58.233 --> 11:02.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So, Trump asked Shinzo Abe and Abe, unlike Zelenskyy -- I mean, 11:04.433 --> 11:07.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% obviously, it's a sillier request, but Abe said he wanted to help. 11:09.900 --> 11:11.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Is there anyone else, anyone currently? Shinzo Abe's gone, obviously. 11:11.933 --> 11:14.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JONATHAN LEMIRE: No. I mean, he was okay with Porsche Johnson for a stretch, but -- 11:14.400 --> 11:15.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% PETER BAKER: That's about it. 11:15.733 --> 11:16.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JONATHAN LEMIRE: Yes, that's about it. Yes. 11:18.266 --> 11:22.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: What is it about democratically elected leaders that turns him off? 11:23.966 --> 11:26.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JONATHAN LEMIRE: And that -- yes, and that's where he's picking the fights 11:26.266 --> 11:29.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% right now. That's where the tariffs are coming, China accepted, like he's targeting the allies 11:29.633 --> 11:32.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% far more than America's traditional adversaries. 11:32.066 --> 11:36.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And what's so also a part two of this, what's so interesting, is he's a member of the Republican 11:36.533 --> 11:41.100 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Party and the Republican Party, you know, was the Russia hawks. They pride themselves 11:41.100 --> 11:46.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% on being tough on national security, being tough on Moscow. We've seen a little bit of 11:48.266 --> 11:51.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% pushback this week. Some sort of suggestion from some Republican senators saying, well, 11:53.300 --> 11:56.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% we don't think Vladimir Putin's a good guy, but very little outright criticism of Trump, 11:58.333 --> 12:00.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a little bit from Senator Tillis yesterday, a little bit from Senator Wicker. But beyond 12:00.400 --> 12:04.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% that, it is simply, maybe Trump's misinformed rather than he's wrong. 12:04.866 --> 12:07.000 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% PETER BAKER: One name, by the way, Benjamin Netanyahu, just to mention. 12:07.000 --> 12:10.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% SUSAN GLASSER: Well, he has a conflicted relationship with that. 12:10.700 --> 12:12.566 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% PETER BAKER: He does. 12:12.566 --> 12:14.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Conflicted and also a semi-strongman who's trying 12:14.466 --> 12:16.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to change Israeli politics to make it easier for him to stay in power. 12:16.633 --> 12:20.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% SUSAN GLASSER: Well, and, again, I just -- I think this point that's really important about 12:20.400 --> 12:24.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% these Republican officials is that some of them may have more traditional Republican views of 12:24.600 --> 12:29.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% foreign policy and of Russia. But when it comes to a choice between their, quote/unquote, deeply held 12:31.833 --> 12:34.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% principles and Trump, they tended to use Trump, and I think Trump humiliated essentially his new 12:37.200 --> 12:40.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% national security adviser, Mike Waltz. There's an extraordinary moment in the White House briefing 12:40.100 --> 12:45.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% room just yesterday in which Waltz's own words were quoted to him where he called, essentially 12:47.200 --> 12:51.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Trump, a murder, murderous thug who was responsible for the war. They said, sir, do you -- 12:51.266 --> 12:52.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Putin. 12:52.700 --> 12:54.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% SUSAN GLASSER: Sorry, Putin. And they said, sir, 12:54.933 --> 12:58.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% do you still agree with this? And he said, no, I agree with Donald Trump on everything. 13:00.700 --> 13:04.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want to read something from something that Vice President J.D. Vance 13:06.033 --> 13:09.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% said the other day, one of the strongest arguments against or for not staying the 13:12.733 --> 13:17.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% course with Ukraine. He tweeted out, while our, while our Western European 13:20.933 --> 13:24.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% allies' security has benefited greatly from the generosity of the United States, 13:24.833 --> 13:28.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% they pursue domestic policies on migration and censorship that offend the sensibilities 13:28.533 --> 13:33.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% of most Americans, and defense policies that assume continued overreliance. 13:35.633 --> 13:39.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Now, put aside for a moment the question of the European cultural differences and what 13:39.033 --> 13:44.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% they do spend money on domestically. It's also true that America's European allies, 13:46.066 --> 13:50.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% for decades, have underspent while we have overspent on their defense. And so I'm just, 13:53.266 --> 13:57.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you know, wondering, I mean, to give their arguments credit, could all of this rhetoric, 13:57.933 --> 14:02.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% all of these threats from the Trump administration actually lead the Europeans to build up their own 14:05.033 --> 14:09.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% defenses in a way that's going to be less reliant on the American soldier coming to their rescue? 14:11.566 --> 14:14.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% PETER BAKER: Yes, that may be the ultimate response here. But, look, the person who 14:14.466 --> 14:19.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% made Europe decide to increase their military spending in the last few years was Vladimir Putin, 14:21.633 --> 14:24.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% right? Trump badgered the NATO allies time and time again in his first term to spend more, 14:24.466 --> 14:27.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% spend more, spend more. A few of them did, but, frankly, by the time he left office, 14:27.800 --> 14:31.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% still only about a half dozen of the allies met the 2 percent of GDP goal. 14:31.900 --> 14:35.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% By the time Biden left office after the full scale invasion, 14:35.733 --> 14:38.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% suddenly it's now two thirds of the alliance is meeting that goal, 14:38.266 --> 14:41.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% not because of Trump, and not really because of Biden, but because of Putin. 14:41.500 --> 14:44.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% SUSAN GLASSER: Yes. But, Jeff, I think you're right. This is an important point to make, 14:44.633 --> 14:48.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% that presidents of both parties, actually going back to Barack Obama, and remember his 14:48.800 --> 14:52.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% defense secretary, Bob Gates, they pushed the European allies. They said, you know, 14:52.866 --> 14:57.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% you can no longer rely upon an open ended American security commitment. And, you know, this was a 15:00.233 --> 15:04.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% theme for quite some time and that's what led to the allies making this agreement, that by 2024, 15:06.366 --> 15:10.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% they would agree to spend a significant percent of their GDP on defense. Now, Donald Trump wants 15:12.733 --> 15:16.700 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% to raise that to 5 percent of GDP to be spent on defense. And by the way, even the United States 15:19.033 --> 15:23.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% does not spend anywhere near that. Actually we're under 4 percent. I believe it's about 3.8 percent. 15:25.233 --> 15:28.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% SUSAN GLASSER: So, you know, the bottom line is that Russia's threat and its revision 15:31.066 --> 15:34.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to the European order, that's going to cost everybody more money. And so I think you see 15:36.600 --> 15:40.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% a real shift. The question I have is not only is the United States going to move away from Ukraine, 15:42.366 --> 15:46.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but what about our NATO partners in Eastern Europe? What about the three Baltic states? 15:48.200 --> 15:51.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% What about Poland? Is their security now compromised by Donald Trump as well? 15:51.100 --> 15:55.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want to come to that in one second, but, Jonathan, I want to ask you this 15:55.100 --> 16:00.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% from the perspective of a White House reporter. There are a lot of different ideologies stuffed 16:02.166 --> 16:06.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% into the Trump team. There's a conservative internationalist, there's kind of muscular 16:08.233 --> 16:11.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% interventionist, there's isolationist. How does that stew pot, how does that work in there? 16:13.400 --> 16:16.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JONATHAN LEMIRE: Right now, it's confused. I mean, not just the national security adviser, 16:16.466 --> 16:21.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but the secretary of state, Marco Rubio, as Senator, was very pro-NATO, very, you 16:23.866 --> 16:26.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% know -- and a Russia hawk. And this week, we have seen exactly the opposite. When he and his, some 16:26.833 --> 16:31.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% of his colleagues spoke to reporters in Riyadh after the first round of Russian-U.S. talks, 16:31.500 --> 16:36.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% talks that, from which Ukraine was excluded, no mention at all of the atrocities Russia has 16:38.733 --> 16:42.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% committed, no mention of all of the war crimes, the charges against Vladimir Putin, instead about 16:42.466 --> 16:47.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% the transactional economic opportunities, about a better relationship between Moscow and Washington. 16:48.833 --> 16:51.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So, there is diversity there. We saw Keith Kellogg, 16:51.466 --> 16:56.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% someone who is much tougher on Russia, today, tweeted praising Zelenskyy, 16:58.366 --> 17:02.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% flying in the face of what Trump has said about him this week. But, Kellogg also 17:02.300 --> 17:05.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% potentially sidelined from some of the Russian talks. We know how unpopular he is in Moscow. 17:05.800 --> 17:10.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You covered the first months of the first Trump term, and it's very different, 17:12.900 --> 17:16.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the Mattises, Pompeos, and so on, Rex Tillersons, the adults. You're saying they're gone? 17:17.933 --> 17:21.300 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JONATHAN LEMIRE: Well, the guardrails are not in place. And the adults who 17:21.300 --> 17:24.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% are in the room right now, back then, had success pushing back. 17:24.333 --> 17:26.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I mean, Marco Rubio might be an adult, 17:26.500 --> 17:31.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but he's not arguing his -- Trump's worldview and he's not in the room. That's interesting. 17:33.066 --> 17:36.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% I want to come back to something, just a final round of something that was 17:36.633 --> 17:41.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% just brought up. This is a quote from the Polish foreign minister, Radek Sikorski, 17:41.100 --> 17:46.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% who said recently that the credibility of the United States depends on how this war ends, 17:46.066 --> 17:50.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% not just the Trump administration, the United States itself. Do you agree? 17:50.933 --> 17:55.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JONATHAN LEMIRE: Yes, I think so. There's such a dramatic course correction from where we were, 17:55.900 --> 18:00.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% from what President Biden said, how he pledged that they would -- the U.S. would stay with 18:00.400 --> 18:05.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Ukraine until the end. And going back further, this is about everything that's been in place 18:05.100 --> 18:10.100 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% since World War II. And it seems that the Trump -- president's view is wildly 18:12.166 --> 18:15.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% different and seems like, yes, he wants the war to end, but he's not doing so in a way 18:15.833 --> 18:19.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% consistent with what has been traditional American values and foreign policy approach. 18:19.866 --> 18:21.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% PETER BAKER: I think the message from Sikorski, people like them, 18:23.666 --> 18:27.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% is don't forget Kabul. You don't want to have Kabul happened on your watch, 18:29.333 --> 18:31.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% right? He's trying to keep them from completely abandoning Ukraine. 18:31.266 --> 18:34.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You mean a chaotic withdrawal, a chaotic collapse of Kyiv? 18:34.266 --> 18:36.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% PETER BAKER: Exactly. You've set Ukraine on 18:36.733 --> 18:41.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the path to what's happened in Afghanistan under Biden. 18:41.333 --> 18:46.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% You hear that from some Trump people saying that's the one caveat as he is catering to 18:48.300 --> 18:50.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Putin is that they don't want a disastrous ending. That's the one thing he fears. 18:50.766 --> 18:55.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Susan, does Donald Trump actually care if Russian tanks roll into Kyiv? 18:58.433 --> 19:02.366 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% SUSAN GLASSER: No. JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You want to expand on that? 19:02.366 --> 19:05.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% SUSAN GLASSER: Look, Jeff, he's been very clear. This is Russia's sphere 19:05.266 --> 19:10.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of influence. He thinks that Russia has a right to do whatever it wants in its sphere 19:10.133 --> 19:15.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% of influence. He prefers Vladimir Putin. He's at the point of almost openly advocating this week 19:17.200 --> 19:21.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% for Volodymyr Zelenskyy's ouster, whether it's through political means or otherwise. 19:22.800 --> 19:24.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So, in other words, he's scared of the pictures, 19:24.333 --> 19:28.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but he actually believes that Ukraine belongs to Russia? 19:28.700 --> 19:33.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% SUSAN GLASSER: I believe I -- it seems to me that he has a regime change policy for Ukraine. 19:35.800 --> 19:38.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, that's a heavy note to end on, but I'm sure we'll be talking about this 19:38.866 --> 19:43.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% in the weeks ahead. We are going to have to leave it there for now, but I want to 19:43.466 --> 19:48.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% thank our panelists for joining us. I want to thank you at home for joining us as well.