1 00:00:01,933 --> 00:00:03,800 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It's been 10 years since Donald Trump came down that golden 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:07,666 escalator and launched his campaign for president. For Washington media, 3 00:00:07,666 --> 00:00:11,033 the age of Trump has proved to be challenging, unnerving, 4 00:00:11,033 --> 00:00:15,666 and rewarding. Trump and the MAGA movement have made the traditional media their targets, 5 00:00:15,666 --> 00:00:20,666 even as we confront radical changes in the way Americans get their news, if they get news at all. 6 00:00:22,133 --> 00:00:26,266 The future is here, and tonight, we'll give you a tour, next. 7 00:00:27,633 --> 00:00:32,233 ANNOUNCER: This is Washington Week with The Atlantic. 8 00:00:34,233 --> 00:00:38,333 Corporate funding provided by Consumer Cellular. Additional funding is provided 9 00:00:40,733 --> 00:00:45,366 by Koo and Patricia Yuen for the Yuen Foundation, 10 00:00:45,366 --> 00:00:50,333 committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities. Sandra and Carl DeLay-Magnuson. 11 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:57,133 Rose Hirschel and Andy Shreeves. Robert and Susan Rosenbaum. The Corporation for Public 12 00:00:59,333 --> 00:01:03,533 Broadcasting. And by contributions to your PBS station from viewers like you. Thank you. 13 00:01:06,933 --> 00:01:11,933 Once again, from the David M. Rubenstein Studio at WETA in Washington, 14 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:15,400 Editor-in-Chief of The Atlantic and Moderator, Jeffrey Goldberg. 15 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:20,266 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Good evening, and welcome to a special edition of Washington Week. 16 00:01:22,166 --> 00:01:26,066 Our subject tonight is the future of the media, Washington media, corporate media, 17 00:01:26,066 --> 00:01:30,300 all media. And my guest is one of the great analysts and interpreters of our 18 00:01:30,300 --> 00:01:35,100 communications future, Kara Swisher. She is the host of the podcast "On with Kara 19 00:01:35,100 --> 00:01:40,100 Swisher," and the co-host of "Pivot." And she's great, and I'm glad you're here. 20 00:01:41,366 --> 00:01:42,200 KARA SWISHER, Co-Host, "Pivot": Thank you. 21 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:43,333 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yeah. 22 00:01:43,333 --> 00:01:44,600 KARA SWISHER: The future of media. 23 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:45,433 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: The future, you are. 24 00:01:45,433 --> 00:01:46,766 KARA SWISHER: All right. 25 00:01:46,766 --> 00:01:47,766 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You are the future of media. 26 00:01:47,766 --> 00:01:49,300 KARA SWISHER: I'm kind of old. 27 00:01:49,300 --> 00:01:50,133 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You know what the future of media is? 28 00:01:50,133 --> 00:01:51,566 KARA SWISHER: What? 29 00:01:51,566 --> 00:01:52,433 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Washington Week with The Atlantic. 30 00:01:52,433 --> 00:01:54,166 KARA SWISHER: Oh, OK. 31 00:01:54,166 --> 00:01:55,466 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That's -- yeah. KARA SWISHER: All right. OK. 32 00:01:55,466 --> 00:01:57,333 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I just -- you heard it here -- 33 00:01:57,333 --> 00:01:58,633 KARA SWISHER: Yeah. OK. Good. JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- first and possibly last. 34 00:01:58,633 --> 00:01:59,766 KARA SWISHER: Yeah. T.V. numbers are -- 35 00:01:59,766 --> 00:02:00,600 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: No, we're good. 36 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:02,200 KARA SWISHER: OK. 37 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:03,766 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We're good. Everybody at home, we're good. 38 00:02:03,766 --> 00:02:04,566 KARA SWISHER: All right. OK. JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We're great. 39 00:02:04,566 --> 00:02:06,066 KARA SWISHER: All right. 40 00:02:06,066 --> 00:02:07,766 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: All right, Kara. First things first, 41 00:02:07,766 --> 00:02:09,500 let's talk about Donald Trump and his relationship to the media. 42 00:02:09,500 --> 00:02:11,266 KARA SWISHER: Sure. JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want you to watch something, 43 00:02:11,266 --> 00:02:13,100 actually, before we go into this. This is Trump just the other day. 44 00:02:13,100 --> 00:02:15,233 DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: These networks and these cable 45 00:02:15,233 --> 00:02:17,466 networks are real losers. They're gutless losers. I say that to CNN because I watch 46 00:02:19,566 --> 00:02:23,300 it. I have no choice. I've got to watch that garbage. It's all garbage. It's all fake news. 47 00:02:25,233 --> 00:02:28,633 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So the large question is, 10 years, what have you learned about 48 00:02:28,633 --> 00:02:32,300 Washington media in particular by watching Washington media cover Trump? But, you know, 49 00:02:32,300 --> 00:02:37,300 the specific question on that is, what is he doing there? What's this performance about? 50 00:02:39,266 --> 00:02:41,466 KARA SWISHER: Well, this is a lot of his old performances. He does a lot of oldies 51 00:02:41,466 --> 00:02:44,700 and he's very good at them. You know, he's -- I think here it's interesting. He's talking 52 00:02:44,700 --> 00:02:48,433 about cable and calling them losers, and yet he can't stop talking about them, 53 00:02:48,433 --> 00:02:52,100 which it make -- which says more about Donald Trump than about cable. He's right, in fact, 54 00:02:52,100 --> 00:02:56,833 that cable's gone down precipitously and that viewers are going elsewhere and everything else. 55 00:02:56,833 --> 00:03:01,800 But he has a fixation on it, and I would say that would be a weakness of his. But in the 56 00:03:04,066 --> 00:03:06,700 case of people covering him, is they're covering - - they don't understand what a phenomena he is 57 00:03:06,700 --> 00:03:11,333 from a media point of view. You don't love to give Donald Trump a compliment some of the time, 58 00:03:11,333 --> 00:03:16,333 but he's really good at media, or the new media, almost by accident but also intuitively. 59 00:03:17,766 --> 00:03:19,833 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. So when he's going after CNN, 60 00:03:19,833 --> 00:03:24,300 does he -- is he really angry at CNN or is that a professional wrestling performance? 61 00:03:24,300 --> 00:03:27,600 KARA SWISHER: Well, you've been in that situation where he said, right? 62 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:29,966 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That is true. That is true. 63 00:03:29,966 --> 00:03:32,100 KARA SWISHER: What's the first thing he said to you? I'm going to get your ratings up. Everything 64 00:03:32,100 --> 00:03:35,466 is about ratings for Donald Trump and about performance and performative behavior. Like, 65 00:03:37,533 --> 00:03:39,900 we obliterated them. Like, they didn't obliterate them, but he felt he had to say it, 66 00:03:39,900 --> 00:03:44,900 and so he sets the tone. And he does understand, again, in a lizard brain that he has here, because 67 00:03:47,133 --> 00:03:50,033 I wouldn't say he's modern in terms of, he's somewhat of a Luddite when it comes to technology. 68 00:03:52,266 --> 00:03:55,200 KARA SWISHER: But he does understand how it moves through the system. And he has always done that, 69 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,600 whether it was back -- way back in the day when he did "The Apprentice" or to now. He is the one 70 00:04:02,900 --> 00:04:05,866 who really has -- everyone thought Obama was the digital president, but this is the guy who is. 71 00:04:07,033 --> 00:04:08,900 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That's interesting. 72 00:04:08,900 --> 00:04:11,033 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You think Trump is better at digital than Barack Obama? 73 00:04:11,033 --> 00:04:13,733 KARA SWISHER: Absolutely. Yes, yeah. He understands the nature of it, the virality, 74 00:04:13,733 --> 00:04:18,733 the posting, the ability to get things going and then move on to the next thing. 75 00:04:19,966 --> 00:04:21,466 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: The domination of the cycle. 76 00:04:21,466 --> 00:04:23,600 KARA SWISHER: Domination, or just the spectacle of it. 77 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,100 KARA SWISHER: He does understand it, and he understands the speed of it. And the word they use 78 00:04:27,100 --> 00:04:32,100 is snackable moments. That's what he does really well. And then you move on. And then the media, 79 00:04:34,500 --> 00:04:37,933 the older media, is caught here, like, looking at what he said, but he's gone on to the next thing. 80 00:04:39,666 --> 00:04:41,600 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You know, what's so interesting about this is, 81 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,000 we talked about this when I was on your podcast, in the Signal controversy. 82 00:04:45,733 --> 00:04:47,900 KARA SWISHER: Right. 83 00:04:47,900 --> 00:04:50,400 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: What -- I asked him, you know, what did you learn from that? Or why 84 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:54,266 did you think that I was, quote, successful? That's what he posted in the Signal moment. 85 00:04:54,266 --> 00:04:56,000 KARA SWISHER: Right. 86 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:56,800 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And he said, well, because you got a lot of attention. 87 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,266 KARA SWISHER: Right. 88 00:04:59,266 --> 00:05:01,300 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It wasn't that we plugged a gap in the national security communications apparatus. 89 00:05:02,633 --> 00:05:03,566 KARA SWISHER: Right. JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It was like -- 90 00:05:03,566 --> 00:05:05,700 KARA SWISHER: Good job on that. 91 00:05:05,700 --> 00:05:07,766 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- it was like -- and it was that the news cycle didn't belong to him 92 00:05:10,066 --> 00:05:13,066 for several hours. And whoever can take the news cycle away from him gets his kind of attention. 93 00:05:15,500 --> 00:05:17,066 KARA SWISHER: Yeah, yeah. It was good on you. It was like you created a moment, and a viral moment. 94 00:05:17,066 --> 00:05:19,066 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. 95 00:05:19,066 --> 00:05:20,766 KARA SWISHER: And so he understands virality better than almost any politician. 96 00:05:20,766 --> 00:05:24,000 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, talk about the Washington press corps, 97 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:29,000 and take us from the escalator moment, when we're dealing with this. Because remember, 98 00:05:30,466 --> 00:05:32,033 the escalator moment was also the Mexican rapist moment. 99 00:05:32,033 --> 00:05:33,533 KARA SWISHER: It was. 100 00:05:33,533 --> 00:05:36,300 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That was when, oh, we're going there? 101 00:05:36,300 --> 00:05:38,233 KARA SWISHER: Yes. 102 00:05:38,233 --> 00:05:41,700 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And so take us through this, and give me your analysis. How 103 00:05:43,700 --> 00:05:46,900 well is the Washington media writ large doing, the mainstream traditional media? 104 00:05:48,233 --> 00:05:49,300 KARA SWISHER: Badly, if they're -- if following him. 105 00:05:49,300 --> 00:05:51,500 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Still? 106 00:05:51,500 --> 00:05:53,400 KARA SWISHER: Yes, some of it. No, some of the people that are doing the investigative stuff, 107 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,433 they're doing their job great. This -- they're uncovering it. The question is, 108 00:05:55,433 --> 00:05:58,300 how much do people actually care? And that's a very different discussion to 109 00:05:58,300 --> 00:06:02,233 be having. But one of the things that they -- when they -- when he came down that escalator, 110 00:06:04,100 --> 00:06:06,633 I tell this story a lot. But I was at a Washington party. It was a barbecue, 111 00:06:06,633 --> 00:06:10,700 and everyone was making fun of him. Like, oh, how silly. This is so silly. 112 00:06:10,700 --> 00:06:14,400 I had watched all "The Apprentices." I liked "The Apprentice." I thought it was a good 113 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:19,100 show. I knew it was wrestling. I got it. It was not really business. And he isn't a very 114 00:06:19,100 --> 00:06:23,833 good business person. But it didn't -- it hardly mattered. It was a good story. And I said, oh, 115 00:06:23,833 --> 00:06:28,133 I don't know. I think he's kind of appealing. And they were like, oh, it's ridiculous. He's a clown. 116 00:06:28,133 --> 00:06:32,866 I'm like, yeah, but I like him, and I'm a lesbian from San Francisco. Like, 117 00:06:32,866 --> 00:06:37,033 what does that say? And I have liberal leanings. And it was interesting that 118 00:06:37,033 --> 00:06:41,833 they didn't take the seriousness of what he was aspirational. He looked like a business 119 00:06:41,833 --> 00:06:46,533 person. He was people's version of a rich person. And he played the part really well. 120 00:06:46,533 --> 00:06:50,933 And I think they tried to pretend that didn't matter, so much so that if you remember, "The 121 00:06:50,933 --> 00:06:54,933 Huffington Post" put him in the entertainment section. And I got in an argument with her. 122 00:06:54,933 --> 00:06:59,933 I'm like, no, he has sense of humor. He's got speed. He does understand digital really well, 123 00:07:01,733 --> 00:07:06,733 intuitively, at the very least. Maybe he is, you know, covfefe, whatever. 124 00:07:07,900 --> 00:07:09,400 KARA SWISHER: But he does understand. 125 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:10,800 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: He's not great at spelling or typing, 126 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,000 which is, by the way, weirdly part of the charm. 127 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,500 KARA SWISHER: Right, exactly. But it doesn't matter. He's into it. And he does understand the 128 00:07:15,500 --> 00:07:20,400 speed and virality. And that's when everything started to change with Twitter, which was, 129 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:25,400 it used to be about context, speed for sure, the internet, and getting the right thing, Google. 130 00:07:27,333 --> 00:07:31,533 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So if you were the czar of all mainstream media, which you're not, 131 00:07:33,566 --> 00:07:36,666 but if you were, and you were in charge of telling the mainstream newspapers, the networks, 132 00:07:38,700 --> 00:07:42,266 "CNN," "The Atlantic," "The New Yorker," et cetera, the wire services, this is the 133 00:07:44,366 --> 00:07:46,833 way you should cover Donald Trump. This would be the way to do it. What would that way be? 134 00:07:46,833 --> 00:07:49,833 KARA SWISHER: I think you have to, look, there's a part for investigative reporting, 135 00:07:49,833 --> 00:07:54,633 which is very different, right? It is, like you have to do, look at the -- accountability 136 00:07:54,633 --> 00:07:59,433 journalism is critical. And reporting is the best way to handle it. Like this, he says this, 137 00:07:59,433 --> 00:08:03,733 this is what happened. He says this, but one of the things they were doing is they sort of lived 138 00:08:03,733 --> 00:08:08,133 in this. I remember being in the biggest argument with "The Washington Post" editor about the word 139 00:08:08,133 --> 00:08:13,133 lie. They wouldn't use the word lie. They were living in a different era than this guy was. 140 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,900 And so I was like, he's lying. And they're like, yeah, we can't say lie because we don't know his 141 00:08:17,900 --> 00:08:22,900 intent. I'm like, well, then you've already lost the thing he is. And one of the difficulties was, 142 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,400 is sort of saying what was happening. They wanted - - they were assuming everything was the same, 143 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,800 the same rules applied. And it didn't with this guy because he was able to go around 144 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,933 them. They hardly mattered, especially with the people that voted for him. 145 00:08:36,933 --> 00:08:40,133 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. So let me ask you this, is trust in the mainstream media low 146 00:08:40,133 --> 00:08:45,133 because of Trump's attacks or because we're bad at our jobs or both or something else entirely? 147 00:08:47,033 --> 00:08:49,000 KARA SWISHER: I don't pay a lot of attention to that because trust in the 148 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,633 media has always been bad, going back to revolutionary times. I mean, like, 149 00:08:52,633 --> 00:08:56,066 sorry, they jailed journalists then. They didn't like journalists was an 150 00:08:56,066 --> 00:08:58,866 ick profession. There was only a period of time when we were heroes, 151 00:08:58,866 --> 00:09:03,866 which is during Watergate. And so media love has not been a great big thing for a long, long time. 152 00:09:05,900 --> 00:09:09,500 I do think one of the things is we're not making things. We don't look at media as 153 00:09:09,500 --> 00:09:12,233 a little bit like product. We're not making things people want to 154 00:09:12,233 --> 00:09:17,100 consume. And there are ways to look at "The Atlantic." You're growing like crazy. Why is 155 00:09:17,100 --> 00:09:21,666 that? It's not because you're doing like viral videos. I don't see Jeff Goldberg, 156 00:09:21,666 --> 00:09:26,200 like, Mr. Beast burying himself in six feet of earth and seeing what happens. Like, you know -- 157 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,533 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Although that's not a bad idea. 158 00:09:28,533 --> 00:09:31,266 KARA SWISHER: I think it's a great idea. You're making products people want to buy. Like, 159 00:09:31,266 --> 00:09:36,266 and I think that's got lost among the media, not understanding the financial dynamics for sure, 160 00:09:38,266 --> 00:09:41,666 which was that Facebook and Google were sucking up all the oxygen in advertising 161 00:09:41,666 --> 00:09:46,533 and not shifting fast enough in that regard and still making the same. It 162 00:09:46,533 --> 00:09:49,500 was like butter churns. I kept going -- when I was at "The Washington Post." I was like, 163 00:09:49,500 --> 00:09:53,400 we're making butter churns, like nobody wants a butter churn. Like, you know, and -- 164 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:55,533 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You felt that at "The Washington Post?" 165 00:09:55,533 --> 00:09:57,900 KARA SWISHER: I did. I did. And then at "The Wall Street Journal," when we were -- which 166 00:09:57,900 --> 00:10:02,900 is why I kept creating all these entrepreneurial digital forward things first. At one point when 167 00:10:04,933 --> 00:10:07,733 I was writing, I remember at the journal I was writing up earnings and I was like, 168 00:10:07,733 --> 00:10:11,433 why am I doing this? Why am I spending this many minutes of my life writing 169 00:10:11,433 --> 00:10:14,700 something a computer could do like and a computer will do it? 170 00:10:14,700 --> 00:10:17,333 And they were like, well, we have to write the earnings. I'm like, 171 00:10:17,333 --> 00:10:21,566 yes, but I'm not adding. There was nothing additive to what I was doing. 172 00:10:21,566 --> 00:10:22,933 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. It was just matching things -- 173 00:10:22,933 --> 00:10:25,333 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- of 10 other people were doing. 174 00:10:25,333 --> 00:10:27,500 KARA SWISHER: We also didn't -- one of the things we did, I think, pioneer at our different sites 175 00:10:27,500 --> 00:10:32,233 that we did all things D and recode was we were telling you what was happening. And you 176 00:10:32,233 --> 00:10:37,233 all do that very well at "The Atlantic." I was in -- I did a story about Webvan and I did the 177 00:10:39,300 --> 00:10:42,500 reporting and I wrote this is going to -- is a disaster, right? This is a disaster. 178 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,333 And an editor came to me and said, well, you need to have someone else say that. I'm like, 179 00:10:48,333 --> 00:10:52,266 yeah, but I did the reporting and it's a -- I can do math. It's a disaster. 180 00:10:52,266 --> 00:10:55,700 We should just say it. And then the reader trusts us more because they're 181 00:10:55,700 --> 00:11:00,433 taking our -- we've done the work. You reported analysis is valuable to people. 182 00:11:00,433 --> 00:11:02,400 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. 183 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,633 KARA SWISHER: And they're like, well, you need to get someone else to say it. 184 00:11:04,633 --> 00:11:07,800 And also you need to say some people say it's not -- it's going to go well. And I was like, 185 00:11:09,700 --> 00:11:12,466 nobody intelligent says that. Why should we do that? And I think readers really 186 00:11:12,466 --> 00:11:17,400 trust people who, one, tell them after doing reporting what they think happened. 187 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,866 KARA SWISHER: And then secondly, being right later. And I think that's one of 188 00:11:20,866 --> 00:11:25,100 the things. But being right later depends on the reporting you do at the top of it. 189 00:11:25,100 --> 00:11:29,100 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Let me ask you, since we both started our professional careers more 190 00:11:29,100 --> 00:11:32,733 or less at the "The Washington Post," which was a juggernaut. 191 00:11:32,733 --> 00:11:34,600 KARA SWISHER: Yes. JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And I think we both have -- 192 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:36,200 KARA SWISHER: Fun. 193 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,133 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- very fond feelings and memories of "The 194 00:11:38,133 --> 00:11:42,033 Washington Post." Jeff Bezos, who bought it a number of years ago -- 195 00:11:42,033 --> 00:11:43,833 KARA SWISHER: Yeah. 196 00:11:43,833 --> 00:11:46,266 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- did fine as an owner through the first Trump term. 197 00:11:46,266 --> 00:11:47,833 KARA SWISHER: Sure. I don't remember that but. 198 00:11:47,833 --> 00:11:49,766 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, OK, then we can pick apart that 199 00:11:49,766 --> 00:11:53,000 in a second. But he had Martin Baron as editor. 200 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:54,533 KARA SWISHER: Yeah. Fantastic. 201 00:11:54,533 --> 00:11:56,733 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And they held the Trump team to account, 202 00:11:56,733 --> 00:12:00,466 just like you would hold any administration to account. And then something changed. You 203 00:12:01,766 --> 00:12:05,833 are the anthropologist of the billionaire tech bro 204 00:12:05,833 --> 00:12:10,833 elite. What happened at "The Washington Post" over the last three or four years? 205 00:12:12,933 --> 00:12:15,400 KARA SWISHER: I don't think he prepared for post-Trump. I think he wasn't involved and he 206 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,300 should have been involved, actually a little more involved. And I think what they did is they sort 207 00:12:18,300 --> 00:12:23,300 of rode on the Trump entertainment train. And then they did -- and then you saw "The New York Times" 208 00:12:25,633 --> 00:12:28,700 add Wordle. When they did Wordle everyone sort of laughed at him like, oh, good idea. That's a great 209 00:12:28,700 --> 00:12:33,700 idea. Like daily use was something you want people to do in some fashion, along with the other stuff. 210 00:12:35,633 --> 00:12:38,133 But you could see news at "The New York Times" was sort of doing this. It wasn't 211 00:12:38,133 --> 00:12:42,533 doing this. You had to start to bring in other things. And "The Post" was really -- used to be 212 00:12:42,533 --> 00:12:46,133 really good at that. This -- they introduced - - Ben Bradley introduced the style section, 213 00:12:46,133 --> 00:12:50,266 the food section. They were so innovative in terms of their product. And Bezos never 214 00:12:50,266 --> 00:12:53,766 innovated. That was my feeling, by not being around, because he could care less. 215 00:12:53,766 --> 00:12:54,933 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: There's another side of this -- 216 00:12:54,933 --> 00:12:56,833 KARA SWISHER: Right. 217 00:12:56,833 --> 00:12:59,433 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- which is that now he seems to be giving in to -- 218 00:12:59,433 --> 00:13:01,666 KARA SWISHER: Yes. 219 00:13:01,666 --> 00:13:03,533 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- demands of the Trump administration. How do you explain that part? 220 00:13:03,533 --> 00:13:05,866 KARA SWISHER: Because he wants things. Because during the first one, remember, 221 00:13:05,866 --> 00:13:09,666 it was "The Washington Post"-Bezos. Remember, they kept affiliating. He started not getting 222 00:13:09,666 --> 00:13:13,200 contracts of things that he actually cared about, which was space travel, 223 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:19,000 things to do with his other companies, Blue Origin, possibilities of attacks on Amazon. Those 224 00:13:21,266 --> 00:13:23,633 are things he actually cares about. I don't think he could care less about the media, honestly. 225 00:13:23,633 --> 00:13:27,033 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: But you really don't think, going back to your dissent before, 226 00:13:27,033 --> 00:13:32,033 you don't think that he did a good job in his early years as owner of "The Washington Post?" 227 00:13:33,933 --> 00:13:36,000 KARA SWISHER: I think he didn't. I think he staying away is always a good thing. 228 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,333 But staying away is a bad thing. He never innovated. And he has innovative ideas. 229 00:13:39,333 --> 00:13:44,333 And he never did innovative things during that period of time that "The New York Times" did. 230 00:13:46,633 --> 00:13:48,800 So I look at "The New York Times" and I look at them. They had every opportunity to do the same 231 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:53,266 thing and a better owner, by the way, who did understand where things were going digitally. 232 00:13:53,266 --> 00:13:57,900 They -- it's fine, but they didn't do anything to take advantage of the next thing -- 233 00:13:57,900 --> 00:14:00,133 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. KARA SWISHER: -- or whatever. 234 00:14:00,133 --> 00:14:04,100 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Are you surprised at all by the behavior of some of the network giants? 235 00:14:05,300 --> 00:14:06,866 KARA SWISHER: No. 236 00:14:06,866 --> 00:14:08,666 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You know where I'm going with this question. 237 00:14:08,666 --> 00:14:11,066 KARA SWISHER: Yeah. JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Why aren't you surprised? 238 00:14:11,066 --> 00:14:13,433 KARA SWISHER: Because their interests have always been for shareholders. And now when they're in 239 00:14:13,433 --> 00:14:17,833 distress because of tech companies, which has taken away their businesses and hollowed out like, 240 00:14:17,833 --> 00:14:22,833 you know, "ABC" is a shadow of itself. So is CBS. It's you know, it's lovely that someone 241 00:14:24,900 --> 00:14:27,200 like David Ellison wants to own it, but it's only because he has a rich dad, right? 242 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,833 It's not a business that's growing and maybe he could make it one. But at this point, 243 00:14:31,833 --> 00:14:35,733 it's not. And so they are under enormous pressure from a business point of view, 244 00:14:35,733 --> 00:14:40,733 from everything being taken away, like by the tech giants. And now they have to protect what 245 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:47,533 they have with shareholders. And so, no, I -- there's no plus for them as a CEO, especially if 246 00:14:49,933 --> 00:14:54,266 you're paid for the stock price or cutting costs to get in a fight with the Trump administration. 247 00:14:55,633 --> 00:14:56,933 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: What about your everlasting soul? 248 00:14:56,933 --> 00:14:58,233 KARA SWISHER: Well, yes, there's that. 249 00:14:58,233 --> 00:14:59,600 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I mean, no, and I'm not. 250 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,966 KARA SWISHER: I'm sorry. 251 00:15:01,966 --> 00:15:05,466 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I'm not joking, you know, at the end of your life, don't you want to stand -- 252 00:15:05,466 --> 00:15:07,533 KARA SWISHER: Absolutely. 253 00:15:07,533 --> 00:15:09,433 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- don't you want to be remembered as a Kay Graham and not as, 254 00:15:09,433 --> 00:15:11,500 I don't know, someone who just gave in to power? 255 00:15:11,500 --> 00:15:13,966 KARA SWISHER: Maybe if you were in an industry that was growing, 256 00:15:13,966 --> 00:15:16,633 maybe you would. But when you're in an industry that's diminishing and that you could -- it could 257 00:15:16,633 --> 00:15:21,633 mess up your other businesses. Everything is about shareholder value, including with the tech guys. 258 00:15:23,533 --> 00:15:25,866 Why do you think they were sitting in the front row? Do you think they love 259 00:15:25,866 --> 00:15:29,866 Trump? A little bit. Not very much. He's useful to them and they're definitely useful to him. 260 00:15:31,633 --> 00:15:33,500 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Let's talk about delivery systems because you spend 261 00:15:33,500 --> 00:15:35,866 a lot of time thinking about this and we're doing this on linear T.V. 262 00:15:37,866 --> 00:15:40,300 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Though you can see us on YouTube and everywhere else. Are there 263 00:15:40,300 --> 00:15:44,733 journalism values of PBS, "The New York Times," "The Atlantic," "CBS," et cetera, et cetera, "AP," 264 00:15:46,933 --> 00:15:51,800 "Reuters." Are these transferable to the platforms that you're very comfortable with? 265 00:15:53,866 --> 00:15:55,933 KARA SWISHER: Yes. Absolutely. We're growing like crazy. Like, I don't -- I think we -- I 266 00:15:55,933 --> 00:16:00,233 do hour long interviews. I just did one on Iran this morning. Like we do substantive 267 00:16:02,333 --> 00:16:05,200 things. It's -- the issue is understanding the product you're making. Like journalists don't 268 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:09,733 like to think of it like that, but it's the news business, right? You have to make money at it. 269 00:16:09,733 --> 00:16:12,700 And so you have to figure out should you make money through advertising? 270 00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:16,300 Should you do subscription? Should you make do merchandise? Should you 271 00:16:16,300 --> 00:16:20,700 do events? So one of the things I did when I started is I had an event business. I had 272 00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:24,533 advertising. I had like we were looking for lots of different revenue streams. 273 00:16:24,533 --> 00:16:28,133 KARA SWISHER: It just you have to figure out what the right one is. The other thing is the idea 274 00:16:28,133 --> 00:16:33,133 that young people only want tiny little silly things is not true. They watch substantively, 275 00:16:35,333 --> 00:16:38,833 but it just depends on where they're watching. And like PBS is a really good example. My son, 276 00:16:40,033 --> 00:16:42,200 I was doing a thing for one of the PBS, 277 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:47,033 the big PBS shows. And my son called me during it. And I'm like, oh, I'm doing this taping. 278 00:16:47,033 --> 00:16:50,400 And he said, oh, I love that show. I watch it all the time. And I was like, 279 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:55,400 oh, oh, you watch PBS. And he goes, no, I watch YouTube. What's the difference? It's -- there's 280 00:16:57,666 --> 00:17:01,733 not a difference. YouTube is television now. And if you aren't hurtling towards it at this 281 00:17:01,733 --> 00:17:06,733 point and someday it won't be. But if you aren't hurtling towards YouTube right now, 282 00:17:08,166 --> 00:17:09,733 you're making an enormous mistake as a media company. 283 00:17:09,733 --> 00:17:13,266 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. So for you, quality, attention span, 284 00:17:13,266 --> 00:17:17,733 all these issues are platform agnostic when it comes to this. 285 00:17:17,733 --> 00:17:19,933 KARA SWISHER: Correct. 286 00:17:19,933 --> 00:17:21,466 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Do you -- I mean, that's the most hopeful thing I've heard in a while, 287 00:17:21,466 --> 00:17:22,900 the idea that young people actually have attention span. 288 00:17:22,900 --> 00:17:24,433 KARA SWISHER: They do. 289 00:17:24,433 --> 00:17:25,733 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It's like what you're suggesting. They 290 00:17:25,733 --> 00:17:27,866 just have attention spans for good things. 291 00:17:27,866 --> 00:17:31,733 KARA SWISHER: They're very discerning media people. It's just let's make things that 292 00:17:31,733 --> 00:17:35,433 they like. They do pay attention. They do like longer things. I think it's just a 293 00:17:35,433 --> 00:17:39,833 question of what -- we spent a lot of time on the distribution system. And when I was 294 00:17:39,833 --> 00:17:43,433 at "The Washington Post," I'm like when I started covering AOL, which I was the first 295 00:17:43,433 --> 00:17:48,400 reporter to do that, I thought everything that can be digitized will be digitized. 296 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:53,400 So why are we doing this thing with the paper? I never understood it. And when I went to "The 297 00:17:55,466 --> 00:17:57,600 Wall Street Journal," we were in one of those meetings and you've been in a hundred of these. 298 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:01,500 Like, how do we get young people to read the newspaper? And it's all old people in the room, 299 00:18:01,500 --> 00:18:05,200 which is my favorite part. And I happen to have been a young person at the time. 300 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,200 And I put up my hand and they seldom invited me to meetings. And I go, well, 301 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,400 tape a joint between every page. I don't know something like that. And they're like, 302 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,366 that's not funny. I'm like, no, it is. 303 00:18:14,366 --> 00:18:16,366 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: No, that's funny. 304 00:18:16,366 --> 00:18:18,800 KARA SWISHER: That's a good, good idea because they're not reading the print 305 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:23,433 paper. So give it to them. If they want to -- if you -- if they want to eat it, 306 00:18:23,433 --> 00:18:28,433 put it on salami and give it to them like, what do you care? And I think that's what has happened. 307 00:18:29,933 --> 00:18:32,033 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I would just I wouldn't put a joint in every 308 00:18:32,033 --> 00:18:35,933 page because that could run up here. That could run up your costs a lot. The -- how 309 00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:39,966 do we -- let's talk about A.I. because another area that you're thinking about 310 00:18:39,966 --> 00:18:44,300 all the time. How do we keep A.I., we're heading to an election, obviously, '28. 311 00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:45,600 KARA SWISHER: Sure. 312 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,166 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: How do we keep a fakery 313 00:18:47,166 --> 00:18:51,866 from just totally tsunami in our understanding of reality? 314 00:18:53,966 --> 00:18:57,033 KARA SWISHER: I have to say I am -- I pay a lot of attention to A.I. now. Look, look at 315 00:18:57,033 --> 00:19:01,733 the damage the Internet has done. Look at the damage. And this is the Internet on steroids. 316 00:19:01,733 --> 00:19:04,233 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, wait, stop. Just go back to this. 317 00:19:04,233 --> 00:19:09,233 What is the -- define the damage that the Internet has done to the politics? 318 00:19:11,366 --> 00:19:13,333 KARA SWISHER: The ability for malevolent players to screw with people like all the time, 319 00:19:13,333 --> 00:19:17,500 like the information flood before. We used to have an information 320 00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:20,766 desert with a lot of people. We did. People didn't have a lot of choices. 321 00:19:20,766 --> 00:19:24,233 KARA SWISHER: Maybe a local station. Now they have a flood. And so that's 322 00:19:24,233 --> 00:19:29,033 just as bad as a desert. Like either way, it's not a good thing. And so with A.I., 323 00:19:29,033 --> 00:19:34,033 you can really do things. And on the good part, you could solve cancer maybe. On the bad part, 324 00:19:36,133 --> 00:19:39,866 on an interesting part, you like the West Wing, we're going to make you 10 more episodes, 325 00:19:41,966 --> 00:19:44,700 10 more seasons. We don't even need to find the actors anymore. That's kind of cool. Like -- 326 00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:46,300 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Explain how that would work. 327 00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:48,400 KARA SWISHER: They would feed the show. The show has seven, 328 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,200 eight seasons, whatever it is you feed it in and you make it again. 329 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:53,433 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. And you tell -- you -- 330 00:19:53,433 --> 00:19:54,966 KARA SWISHER: I would like, yes. 331 00:19:54,966 --> 00:19:57,366 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- to tell the A.I. just go make a new season. 332 00:19:57,366 --> 00:20:00,866 KARA SWISHER: Go make. And I would like there to be more of this. I would like this to happen. 333 00:20:00,866 --> 00:20:05,500 KARA SWISHER: There's all kinds of things. But it could also create all kinds of confusion, 334 00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:09,500 especially around video. That's -- if you initially everyone was like, oh, it's got 335 00:20:09,500 --> 00:20:14,500 six fingers or three. Well, today it does. But go back and look at early Internet websites. 336 00:20:16,733 --> 00:20:19,333 KARA SWISHER: You know, the biggest, most popular website at the beginning of the Internet was 337 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,600 a camera pointed at a coffee pot that was making coffee. 338 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,866 KARA SWISHER: We're way beyond that. And you couldn't have any. What you have to 339 00:20:26,866 --> 00:20:29,600 do is anticipate what you can't anticipate. Could 340 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:34,600 you have anticipated when the app store started Uber? Maybe. Nobody. You know -- 341 00:20:36,333 --> 00:20:38,000 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, somebody did and then they got rich. Yeah. 342 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,033 KARA SWISHER: Somebody did. But at the beginning, you didn't. 343 00:20:40,033 --> 00:20:43,300 KARA SWISHER: You didn't know. And so I can -- you could see all kinds of really 344 00:20:43,300 --> 00:20:48,233 interesting media applications for A.I. You could also see easily dangerous ones. 345 00:20:48,233 --> 00:20:53,200 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: What would you do to stop the wave, the coming wave of unreality that 346 00:20:55,300 --> 00:20:58,666 could affect, look, on the American domestic level, it can affect our politics and maybe 347 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,033 violence at the margins? But we just saw Mountainhead. I think that's -- 348 00:21:04,900 --> 00:21:06,266 KARA SWISHER: Yes. Mountainhead. 349 00:21:06,266 --> 00:21:07,633 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Mountainhead. You know, what -- 350 00:21:07,633 --> 00:21:09,866 KARA SWISHER: Jesse, who was successful. He also -- 351 00:21:09,866 --> 00:21:14,400 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yeah, yeah. I mean, which is great. And it wasn't as crazy and satirical. 352 00:21:16,500 --> 00:21:18,666 It kind of felt like, oh, this -- these are things that could happen. You could foment 353 00:21:18,666 --> 00:21:23,300 large scale violence by the introduction of fake video. How does it stop? How does it not? 354 00:21:25,466 --> 00:21:27,533 KARA SWISHER: Well, one of the great lines in that was like, well, you got something funny 355 00:21:27,533 --> 00:21:31,600 like Snoopy with a giant penis. There was, remember that? Or you have this. And what 356 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:36,600 was interesting about that movie is that, there was a guy in it who was the good A.I. guy, right? 357 00:21:38,766 --> 00:21:41,666 KARA SWISHER: Was he so good? Because what he said is, what would you feel like if you if 358 00:21:43,766 --> 00:21:46,500 information cancer was there and you had the cure? He was more interested in the money he 359 00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:51,466 could make doing it. And so the question is, should we put -- there's ways to follow this 360 00:21:53,433 --> 00:21:56,500 video to make sure it's real. Should we legislate that? Should we -- that's the 361 00:21:56,500 --> 00:22:00,100 kind of stuff our legislators should be and are not thinking about whatsoever. 362 00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:04,533 But they did know legislation against tech companies. They let them run rampant across 363 00:22:04,533 --> 00:22:09,500 our media. They let them run rampant across our politics. And, you know, 364 00:22:09,500 --> 00:22:13,733 these are digital arms dealers in a very, very clear way. And we never 365 00:22:13,733 --> 00:22:16,400 did anything about it. And we're not going to under this administration. 366 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,900 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And, you know, these people better than almost any reporter, 367 00:22:19,900 --> 00:22:24,900 any sense that they know that they're riding a very wild horse and that they 368 00:22:26,566 --> 00:22:29,233 have to get this under control before an election goes sideways? 369 00:22:29,233 --> 00:22:33,100 KARA SWISHER: They don't care. I wish you would understand that everyone's like, how could they? 370 00:22:33,100 --> 00:22:38,100 I'm like, they don't care. They're interested in shareholder value. And you must understand -- I 371 00:22:40,233 --> 00:22:43,433 know you're down with the soul thing. They don't care. And they don't think they're to blame, 372 00:22:43,433 --> 00:22:47,033 by the way. They think people are to blame. They think cable is to blame. The media is 373 00:22:47,033 --> 00:22:51,300 to blame. They are -- they're the biggest blame throwers. They're just making stuff. 374 00:22:51,300 --> 00:22:55,533 And however people use it, it's sort of the guns don't kill people, people kill people. 375 00:22:55,533 --> 00:22:58,566 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, it's like a, it's the drug dealer analogy is if 376 00:22:58,566 --> 00:23:01,233 they want to, I mean, I can't control somebody wants drugs. 377 00:23:01,233 --> 00:23:03,100 KARA SWISHER: Of course you can. 378 00:23:03,100 --> 00:23:05,300 KARA SWISHER: Of course you can. And one of the things is they've never been 379 00:23:05,300 --> 00:23:09,466 subject to any regulation. And the regulation they've been subject to is helpful to them, 380 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:12,933 Section 230. They can do whatever they want. And let me tell you, 381 00:23:12,933 --> 00:23:15,800 sometimes that leads to great things. Sometimes it leads to precise. 382 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:20,466 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You know, this amazing E.O. Wilson line, the, you know, the primatology, 383 00:23:20,466 --> 00:23:25,466 the evolutionary biologist. He says that the central challenge of our age is we 384 00:23:27,266 --> 00:23:30,300 have paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions and godlike technology. 385 00:23:30,300 --> 00:23:31,833 KARA SWISHER: Right. Exactly. 386 00:23:31,833 --> 00:23:33,566 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And so it's -- that's what we're heading into. 387 00:23:33,566 --> 00:23:35,833 KARA SWISHER: But they're also rich. That is the part you're not 388 00:23:35,833 --> 00:23:37,900 figuring in. These people are -- I'm waiting to -- 389 00:23:37,900 --> 00:23:39,966 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: They fund your technology. 390 00:23:39,966 --> 00:23:42,233 KARA SWISHER: Right. It's -- they have now power -- they were not interested in 391 00:23:42,233 --> 00:23:45,033 Washington. I had Bill Gates to "The Washington Post" once and he's like, 392 00:23:45,033 --> 00:23:48,533 oh, Washington, like he used to be like that. I don't have a lobbyist here. He 393 00:23:48,533 --> 00:23:52,133 was in front of Mrs. Graham, the rest in those lunches they used to have upstairs. 394 00:23:52,133 --> 00:23:54,700 KARA SWISHER: I don't care about Washington. They care about Washington, 395 00:23:54,700 --> 00:23:58,633 which is why they're here buying, you know, the coin operated president. 396 00:23:58,633 --> 00:24:03,600 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. The -- there's so much to talk about. We have time for one more question. 397 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,400 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It's a little bit of an impossible one, but try anyway. 398 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,666 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Ten years from now, how do you think we're going to be getting our 399 00:24:11,666 --> 00:24:16,666 information? Obviously, Washington Week and The Atlantic and your podcasts, but put those aside. 400 00:24:17,866 --> 00:24:19,900 KARA SWISHER: Now I'll be dead probably. 401 00:24:19,900 --> 00:24:20,833 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Put that -- you're not going to be dead. You're very healthy. 402 00:24:20,833 --> 00:24:22,133 KARA SWISHER: I'll be old and -- 403 00:24:22,133 --> 00:24:22,933 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We're all going to be older. 404 00:24:22,933 --> 00:24:24,300 KARA SWISHER: Right. 405 00:24:24,300 --> 00:24:26,333 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: How are we getting information? 406 00:24:26,333 --> 00:24:28,400 KARA SWISHER: You know, I do think there's a real business for good information and 407 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,400 really good reporting. I don't think that ever changes. I really don't. 408 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,200 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That's the interesting about Substack, by the way. 409 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,300 KARA SWISHER: Right. JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Not a lot of reporting on. 410 00:24:35,300 --> 00:24:38,533 KARA SWISHER: No, there's not. But there's interesting insight into part. But that 411 00:24:38,533 --> 00:24:43,100 doesn't mean you can't still make a business. You know, to me, you run toward where people have a 412 00:24:43,100 --> 00:24:47,600 need and they have a need for great and good information. And I think that doesn't change. 413 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,800 What they -- you do have to understand is the delivery. You're going to get everything in 414 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,866 your eyes. There's going to be -- you're going to be wearing things. They're not going to look like 415 00:24:54,866 --> 00:24:59,866 what they -- they're a little heavy right now. But everything will be -- if you see one movie, 416 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,533 watch "Minority Report." That was writ -- that was done. They had consultants that I 417 00:25:04,533 --> 00:25:09,500 think were brilliant in terms of where things were going. Everything will be monitored, 418 00:25:09,500 --> 00:25:13,033 surveilled. They'll know when you walk in. They'll know what you want. And 419 00:25:13,033 --> 00:25:17,266 that's -- that to me. And so make good products rather than bad ones. They'll 420 00:25:17,266 --> 00:25:22,266 sell just as well. But the bad products will also, just like Twinkies do. Be very popular. 421 00:25:25,566 --> 00:25:28,133 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We're going to have to leave it there for now. Your assignment 422 00:25:28,133 --> 00:25:33,133 at home is to watch "Minority Report." I want to thank you all for watching. I want to thank 423 00:25:35,166 --> 00:25:38,300 Kara for joining us. And you could watch Washington Week with the Atlantic anytime 424 00:25:38,300 --> 00:25:43,300 on YouTube or online at PBS.org/WashingtonWeek. I'm Jeffrey Goldberg. Good night from Washington.