WEBVTT 00:01.933 --> 00:03.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It's been 10 years since Donald Trump came down that golden 00:03.800 --> 00:07.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% escalator and launched his campaign for president. For Washington media, 00:07.666 --> 00:11.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the age of Trump has proved to be challenging, unnerving, 00:11.033 --> 00:15.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and rewarding. Trump and the MAGA movement have made the traditional media their targets, 00:15.666 --> 00:20.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% even as we confront radical changes in the way Americans get their news, if they get news at all. 00:22.133 --> 00:26.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The future is here, and tonight, we'll give you a tour, next. 00:27.633 --> 00:32.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% ANNOUNCER: This is Washington Week with The Atlantic. 00:34.233 --> 00:38.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Corporate funding provided by Consumer Cellular. Additional funding is provided 00:40.733 --> 00:45.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% by Koo and Patricia Yuen for the Yuen Foundation, 00:45.366 --> 00:50.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities. Sandra and Carl DeLay-Magnuson. 00:52.400 --> 00:57.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Rose Hirschel and Andy Shreeves. Robert and Susan Rosenbaum. The Corporation for Public 00:59.333 --> 01:03.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Broadcasting. And by contributions to your PBS station from viewers like you. Thank you. 01:06.933 --> 01:11.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Once again, from the David M. Rubenstein Studio at WETA in Washington, 01:13.400 --> 01:15.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Editor-in-Chief of The Atlantic and Moderator, Jeffrey Goldberg. 01:15.400 --> 01:20.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Good evening, and welcome to a special edition of Washington Week. 01:22.166 --> 01:26.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Our subject tonight is the future of the media, Washington media, corporate media, 01:26.066 --> 01:30.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% all media. And my guest is one of the great analysts and interpreters of our 01:30.300 --> 01:35.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% communications future, Kara Swisher. She is the host of the podcast "On with Kara 01:35.100 --> 01:40.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Swisher," and the co-host of "Pivot." And she's great, and I'm glad you're here. 01:41.366 --> 01:42.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% KARA SWISHER, Co-Host, "Pivot": Thank you. 01:42.200 --> 01:43.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yeah. 01:43.333 --> 01:44.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% KARA SWISHER: The future of media. 01:44.600 --> 01:45.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: The future, you are. 01:45.433 --> 01:46.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% KARA SWISHER: All right. 01:46.766 --> 01:47.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You are the future of media. 01:47.766 --> 01:49.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% KARA SWISHER: I'm kind of old. 01:49.300 --> 01:50.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You know what the future of media is? 01:50.133 --> 01:51.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% KARA SWISHER: What? 01:51.566 --> 01:52.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Washington Week with The Atlantic. 01:52.433 --> 01:54.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Oh, OK. 01:54.166 --> 01:55.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That's -- yeah. KARA SWISHER: All right. OK. 01:55.466 --> 01:57.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I just -- you heard it here -- 01:57.333 --> 01:58.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Yeah. OK. Good. JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- first and possibly last. 01:58.633 --> 01:59.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Yeah. T.V. numbers are -- 01:59.766 --> 02:00.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: No, we're good. 02:00.600 --> 02:02.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% KARA SWISHER: OK. 02:02.200 --> 02:03.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We're good. Everybody at home, we're good. 02:03.766 --> 02:04.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% KARA SWISHER: All right. OK. JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We're great. 02:04.566 --> 02:06.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% KARA SWISHER: All right. 02:06.066 --> 02:07.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: All right, Kara. First things first, 02:07.766 --> 02:09.500 align:left position:30% line:77% size:60% let's talk about Donald Trump and his relationship to the media. 02:09.500 --> 02:11.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Sure. JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want you to watch something, 02:11.266 --> 02:13.100 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% actually, before we go into this. This is Trump just the other day. 02:13.100 --> 02:15.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: These networks and these cable 02:15.233 --> 02:17.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% networks are real losers. They're gutless losers. I say that to CNN because I watch 02:19.566 --> 02:23.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it. I have no choice. I've got to watch that garbage. It's all garbage. It's all fake news. 02:25.233 --> 02:28.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So the large question is, 10 years, what have you learned about 02:28.633 --> 02:32.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Washington media in particular by watching Washington media cover Trump? But, you know, 02:32.300 --> 02:37.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the specific question on that is, what is he doing there? What's this performance about? 02:39.266 --> 02:41.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: Well, this is a lot of his old performances. He does a lot of oldies 02:41.466 --> 02:44.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and he's very good at them. You know, he's -- I think here it's interesting. He's talking 02:44.700 --> 02:48.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% about cable and calling them losers, and yet he can't stop talking about them, 02:48.433 --> 02:52.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% which it make -- which says more about Donald Trump than about cable. He's right, in fact, 02:52.100 --> 02:56.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% that cable's gone down precipitously and that viewers are going elsewhere and everything else. 02:56.833 --> 03:01.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But he has a fixation on it, and I would say that would be a weakness of his. But in the 03:04.066 --> 03:06.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% case of people covering him, is they're covering - - they don't understand what a phenomena he is 03:06.700 --> 03:11.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% from a media point of view. You don't love to give Donald Trump a compliment some of the time, 03:11.333 --> 03:16.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but he's really good at media, or the new media, almost by accident but also intuitively. 03:17.766 --> 03:19.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. So when he's going after CNN, 03:19.833 --> 03:24.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% does he -- is he really angry at CNN or is that a professional wrestling performance? 03:24.300 --> 03:27.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: Well, you've been in that situation where he said, right? 03:27.600 --> 03:29.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That is true. That is true. 03:29.966 --> 03:32.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% KARA SWISHER: What's the first thing he said to you? I'm going to get your ratings up. Everything 03:32.100 --> 03:35.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% is about ratings for Donald Trump and about performance and performative behavior. Like, 03:37.533 --> 03:39.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% we obliterated them. Like, they didn't obliterate them, but he felt he had to say it, 03:39.900 --> 03:44.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and so he sets the tone. And he does understand, again, in a lizard brain that he has here, because 03:47.133 --> 03:50.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I wouldn't say he's modern in terms of, he's somewhat of a Luddite when it comes to technology. 03:52.266 --> 03:55.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% KARA SWISHER: But he does understand how it moves through the system. And he has always done that, 03:57.400 --> 04:00.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% whether it was back -- way back in the day when he did "The Apprentice" or to now. He is the one 04:02.900 --> 04:05.866 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% who really has -- everyone thought Obama was the digital president, but this is the guy who is. 04:07.033 --> 04:08.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That's interesting. 04:08.900 --> 04:11.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You think Trump is better at digital than Barack Obama? 04:11.033 --> 04:13.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: Absolutely. Yes, yeah. He understands the nature of it, the virality, 04:13.733 --> 04:18.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the posting, the ability to get things going and then move on to the next thing. 04:19.966 --> 04:21.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: The domination of the cycle. 04:21.466 --> 04:23.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% KARA SWISHER: Domination, or just the spectacle of it. 04:23.600 --> 04:27.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: He does understand it, and he understands the speed of it. And the word they use 04:27.100 --> 04:32.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% is snackable moments. That's what he does really well. And then you move on. And then the media, 04:34.500 --> 04:37.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% the older media, is caught here, like, looking at what he said, but he's gone on to the next thing. 04:39.666 --> 04:41.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You know, what's so interesting about this is, 04:41.600 --> 04:45.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% we talked about this when I was on your podcast, in the Signal controversy. 04:45.733 --> 04:47.900 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Right. 04:47.900 --> 04:50.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: What -- I asked him, you know, what did you learn from that? Or why 04:50.400 --> 04:54.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% did you think that I was, quote, successful? That's what he posted in the Signal moment. 04:54.266 --> 04:56.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Right. 04:56.000 --> 04:56.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And he said, well, because you got a lot of attention. 04:56.800 --> 04:59.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Right. 04:59.266 --> 05:01.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It wasn't that we plugged a gap in the national security communications apparatus. 05:02.633 --> 05:03.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Right. JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It was like -- 05:03.566 --> 05:05.700 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% KARA SWISHER: Good job on that. 05:05.700 --> 05:07.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- it was like -- and it was that the news cycle didn't belong to him 05:10.066 --> 05:13.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% for several hours. And whoever can take the news cycle away from him gets his kind of attention. 05:15.500 --> 05:17.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% KARA SWISHER: Yeah, yeah. It was good on you. It was like you created a moment, and a viral moment. 05:17.066 --> 05:19.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. 05:19.066 --> 05:20.766 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KARA SWISHER: And so he understands virality better than almost any politician. 05:20.766 --> 05:24.000 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, talk about the Washington press corps, 05:24.000 --> 05:29.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and take us from the escalator moment, when we're dealing with this. Because remember, 05:30.466 --> 05:32.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the escalator moment was also the Mexican rapist moment. 05:32.033 --> 05:33.533 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% KARA SWISHER: It was. 05:33.533 --> 05:36.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That was when, oh, we're going there? 05:36.300 --> 05:38.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Yes. 05:38.233 --> 05:41.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And so take us through this, and give me your analysis. How 05:43.700 --> 05:46.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% well is the Washington media writ large doing, the mainstream traditional media? 05:48.233 --> 05:49.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Badly, if they're -- if following him. 05:49.300 --> 05:51.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Still? 05:51.500 --> 05:53.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: Yes, some of it. No, some of the people that are doing the investigative stuff, 05:53.400 --> 05:55.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% they're doing their job great. This -- they're uncovering it. The question is, 05:55.433 --> 05:58.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% how much do people actually care? And that's a very different discussion to 05:58.300 --> 06:02.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% be having. But one of the things that they -- when they -- when he came down that escalator, 06:04.100 --> 06:06.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% I tell this story a lot. But I was at a Washington party. It was a barbecue, 06:06.633 --> 06:10.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and everyone was making fun of him. Like, oh, how silly. This is so silly. 06:10.700 --> 06:14.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I had watched all "The Apprentices." I liked "The Apprentice." I thought it was a good 06:14.400 --> 06:19.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% show. I knew it was wrestling. I got it. It was not really business. And he isn't a very 06:19.100 --> 06:23.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% good business person. But it didn't -- it hardly mattered. It was a good story. And I said, oh, 06:23.833 --> 06:28.133 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% I don't know. I think he's kind of appealing. And they were like, oh, it's ridiculous. He's a clown. 06:28.133 --> 06:32.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I'm like, yeah, but I like him, and I'm a lesbian from San Francisco. Like, 06:32.866 --> 06:37.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% what does that say? And I have liberal leanings. And it was interesting that 06:37.033 --> 06:41.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% they didn't take the seriousness of what he was aspirational. He looked like a business 06:41.833 --> 06:46.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% person. He was people's version of a rich person. And he played the part really well. 06:46.533 --> 06:50.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And I think they tried to pretend that didn't matter, so much so that if you remember, "The 06:50.933 --> 06:54.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Huffington Post" put him in the entertainment section. And I got in an argument with her. 06:54.933 --> 06:59.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I'm like, no, he has sense of humor. He's got speed. He does understand digital really well, 07:01.733 --> 07:06.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% intuitively, at the very least. Maybe he is, you know, covfefe, whatever. 07:07.900 --> 07:09.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% KARA SWISHER: But he does understand. 07:09.400 --> 07:10.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: He's not great at spelling or typing, 07:10.800 --> 07:13.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which is, by the way, weirdly part of the charm. 07:13.000 --> 07:15.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: Right, exactly. But it doesn't matter. He's into it. And he does understand the 07:15.500 --> 07:20.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% speed and virality. And that's when everything started to change with Twitter, which was, 07:20.400 --> 07:25.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% it used to be about context, speed for sure, the internet, and getting the right thing, Google. 07:27.333 --> 07:31.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So if you were the czar of all mainstream media, which you're not, 07:33.566 --> 07:36.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but if you were, and you were in charge of telling the mainstream newspapers, the networks, 07:38.700 --> 07:42.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% "CNN," "The Atlantic," "The New Yorker," et cetera, the wire services, this is the 07:44.366 --> 07:46.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% way you should cover Donald Trump. This would be the way to do it. What would that way be? 07:46.833 --> 07:49.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: I think you have to, look, there's a part for investigative reporting, 07:49.833 --> 07:54.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% which is very different, right? It is, like you have to do, look at the -- accountability 07:54.633 --> 07:59.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% journalism is critical. And reporting is the best way to handle it. Like this, he says this, 07:59.433 --> 08:03.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% this is what happened. He says this, but one of the things they were doing is they sort of lived 08:03.733 --> 08:08.133 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% in this. I remember being in the biggest argument with "The Washington Post" editor about the word 08:08.133 --> 08:13.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% lie. They wouldn't use the word lie. They were living in a different era than this guy was. 08:15.400 --> 08:17.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And so I was like, he's lying. And they're like, yeah, we can't say lie because we don't know his 08:17.900 --> 08:22.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% intent. I'm like, well, then you've already lost the thing he is. And one of the difficulties was, 08:25.200 --> 08:28.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% is sort of saying what was happening. They wanted - - they were assuming everything was the same, 08:28.400 --> 08:32.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the same rules applied. And it didn't with this guy because he was able to go around 08:32.800 --> 08:36.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% them. They hardly mattered, especially with the people that voted for him. 08:36.933 --> 08:40.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. So let me ask you this, is trust in the mainstream media low 08:40.133 --> 08:45.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% because of Trump's attacks or because we're bad at our jobs or both or something else entirely? 08:47.033 --> 08:49.000 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KARA SWISHER: I don't pay a lot of attention to that because trust in the 08:49.000 --> 08:52.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% media has always been bad, going back to revolutionary times. I mean, like, 08:52.633 --> 08:56.066 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% sorry, they jailed journalists then. They didn't like journalists was an 08:56.066 --> 08:58.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% ick profession. There was only a period of time when we were heroes, 08:58.866 --> 09:03.866 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% which is during Watergate. And so media love has not been a great big thing for a long, long time. 09:05.900 --> 09:09.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I do think one of the things is we're not making things. We don't look at media as 09:09.500 --> 09:12.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a little bit like product. We're not making things people want to 09:12.233 --> 09:17.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% consume. And there are ways to look at "The Atlantic." You're growing like crazy. Why is 09:17.100 --> 09:21.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that? It's not because you're doing like viral videos. I don't see Jeff Goldberg, 09:21.666 --> 09:26.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% like, Mr. Beast burying himself in six feet of earth and seeing what happens. Like, you know -- 09:26.200 --> 09:28.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Although that's not a bad idea. 09:28.533 --> 09:31.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% KARA SWISHER: I think it's a great idea. You're making products people want to buy. Like, 09:31.266 --> 09:36.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and I think that's got lost among the media, not understanding the financial dynamics for sure, 09:38.266 --> 09:41.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% which was that Facebook and Google were sucking up all the oxygen in advertising 09:41.666 --> 09:46.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and not shifting fast enough in that regard and still making the same. It 09:46.533 --> 09:49.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% was like butter churns. I kept going -- when I was at "The Washington Post." I was like, 09:49.500 --> 09:53.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% we're making butter churns, like nobody wants a butter churn. Like, you know, and -- 09:53.400 --> 09:55.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You felt that at "The Washington Post?" 09:55.533 --> 09:57.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: I did. I did. And then at "The Wall Street Journal," when we were -- which 09:57.900 --> 10:02.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% is why I kept creating all these entrepreneurial digital forward things first. At one point when 10:04.933 --> 10:07.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I was writing, I remember at the journal I was writing up earnings and I was like, 10:07.733 --> 10:11.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% why am I doing this? Why am I spending this many minutes of my life writing 10:11.433 --> 10:14.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% something a computer could do like and a computer will do it? 10:14.700 --> 10:17.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And they were like, well, we have to write the earnings. I'm like, 10:17.333 --> 10:21.566 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% yes, but I'm not adding. There was nothing additive to what I was doing. 10:21.566 --> 10:22.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. It was just matching things -- 10:22.933 --> 10:25.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- of 10 other people were doing. 10:25.333 --> 10:27.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% KARA SWISHER: We also didn't -- one of the things we did, I think, pioneer at our different sites 10:27.500 --> 10:32.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that we did all things D and recode was we were telling you what was happening. And you 10:32.233 --> 10:37.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% all do that very well at "The Atlantic." I was in -- I did a story about Webvan and I did the 10:39.300 --> 10:42.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% reporting and I wrote this is going to -- is a disaster, right? This is a disaster. 10:44.600 --> 10:48.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And an editor came to me and said, well, you need to have someone else say that. I'm like, 10:48.333 --> 10:52.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% yeah, but I did the reporting and it's a -- I can do math. It's a disaster. 10:52.266 --> 10:55.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% We should just say it. And then the reader trusts us more because they're 10:55.700 --> 11:00.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% taking our -- we've done the work. You reported analysis is valuable to people. 11:00.433 --> 11:02.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. 11:02.400 --> 11:04.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: And they're like, well, you need to get someone else to say it. 11:04.633 --> 11:07.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And also you need to say some people say it's not -- it's going to go well. And I was like, 11:09.700 --> 11:12.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% nobody intelligent says that. Why should we do that? And I think readers really 11:12.466 --> 11:17.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% trust people who, one, tell them after doing reporting what they think happened. 11:17.400 --> 11:20.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KARA SWISHER: And then secondly, being right later. And I think that's one of 11:20.866 --> 11:25.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the things. But being right later depends on the reporting you do at the top of it. 11:25.100 --> 11:29.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Let me ask you, since we both started our professional careers more 11:29.100 --> 11:32.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% or less at the "The Washington Post," which was a juggernaut. 11:32.733 --> 11:34.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Yes. JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And I think we both have -- 11:34.600 --> 11:36.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Fun. 11:36.200 --> 11:38.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- very fond feelings and memories of "The 11:38.133 --> 11:42.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Washington Post." Jeff Bezos, who bought it a number of years ago -- 11:42.033 --> 11:43.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Yeah. 11:43.833 --> 11:46.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- did fine as an owner through the first Trump term. 11:46.266 --> 11:47.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Sure. I don't remember that but. 11:47.833 --> 11:49.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, OK, then we can pick apart that 11:49.766 --> 11:53.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in a second. But he had Martin Baron as editor. 11:53.000 --> 11:54.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% KARA SWISHER: Yeah. Fantastic. 11:54.533 --> 11:56.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And they held the Trump team to account, 11:56.733 --> 12:00.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% just like you would hold any administration to account. And then something changed. You 12:01.766 --> 12:05.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% are the anthropologist of the billionaire tech bro 12:05.833 --> 12:10.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% elite. What happened at "The Washington Post" over the last three or four years? 12:12.933 --> 12:15.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: I don't think he prepared for post-Trump. I think he wasn't involved and he 12:15.400 --> 12:18.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% should have been involved, actually a little more involved. And I think what they did is they sort 12:18.300 --> 12:23.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% of rode on the Trump entertainment train. And then they did -- and then you saw "The New York Times" 12:25.633 --> 12:28.700 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% add Wordle. When they did Wordle everyone sort of laughed at him like, oh, good idea. That's a great 12:28.700 --> 12:33.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% idea. Like daily use was something you want people to do in some fashion, along with the other stuff. 12:35.633 --> 12:38.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But you could see news at "The New York Times" was sort of doing this. It wasn't 12:38.133 --> 12:42.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% doing this. You had to start to bring in other things. And "The Post" was really -- used to be 12:42.533 --> 12:46.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% really good at that. This -- they introduced - - Ben Bradley introduced the style section, 12:46.133 --> 12:50.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the food section. They were so innovative in terms of their product. And Bezos never 12:50.266 --> 12:53.766 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% innovated. That was my feeling, by not being around, because he could care less. 12:53.766 --> 12:54.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: There's another side of this -- 12:54.933 --> 12:56.833 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Right. 12:56.833 --> 12:59.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- which is that now he seems to be giving in to -- 12:59.433 --> 13:01.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Yes. 13:01.666 --> 13:03.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- demands of the Trump administration. How do you explain that part? 13:03.533 --> 13:05.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Because he wants things. Because during the first one, remember, 13:05.866 --> 13:09.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% it was "The Washington Post"-Bezos. Remember, they kept affiliating. He started not getting 13:09.666 --> 13:13.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% contracts of things that he actually cared about, which was space travel, 13:15.400 --> 13:19.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% things to do with his other companies, Blue Origin, possibilities of attacks on Amazon. Those 13:21.266 --> 13:23.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% are things he actually cares about. I don't think he could care less about the media, honestly. 13:23.633 --> 13:27.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: But you really don't think, going back to your dissent before, 13:27.033 --> 13:32.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you don't think that he did a good job in his early years as owner of "The Washington Post?" 13:33.933 --> 13:36.000 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KARA SWISHER: I think he didn't. I think he staying away is always a good thing. 13:36.000 --> 13:39.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But staying away is a bad thing. He never innovated. And he has innovative ideas. 13:39.333 --> 13:44.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And he never did innovative things during that period of time that "The New York Times" did. 13:46.633 --> 13:48.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% So I look at "The New York Times" and I look at them. They had every opportunity to do the same 13:48.800 --> 13:53.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% thing and a better owner, by the way, who did understand where things were going digitally. 13:53.266 --> 13:57.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% They -- it's fine, but they didn't do anything to take advantage of the next thing -- 13:57.900 --> 14:00.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. KARA SWISHER: -- or whatever. 14:00.133 --> 14:04.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Are you surprised at all by the behavior of some of the network giants? 14:05.300 --> 14:06.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% KARA SWISHER: No. 14:06.866 --> 14:08.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You know where I'm going with this question. 14:08.666 --> 14:11.066 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Yeah. JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Why aren't you surprised? 14:11.066 --> 14:13.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Because their interests have always been for shareholders. And now when they're in 14:13.433 --> 14:17.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% distress because of tech companies, which has taken away their businesses and hollowed out like, 14:17.833 --> 14:22.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you know, "ABC" is a shadow of itself. So is CBS. It's you know, it's lovely that someone 14:24.900 --> 14:27.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% like David Ellison wants to own it, but it's only because he has a rich dad, right? 14:27.200 --> 14:31.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% It's not a business that's growing and maybe he could make it one. But at this point, 14:31.833 --> 14:35.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it's not. And so they are under enormous pressure from a business point of view, 14:35.733 --> 14:40.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% from everything being taken away, like by the tech giants. And now they have to protect what 14:42.800 --> 14:47.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% they have with shareholders. And so, no, I -- there's no plus for them as a CEO, especially if 14:49.933 --> 14:54.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% you're paid for the stock price or cutting costs to get in a fight with the Trump administration. 14:55.633 --> 14:56.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: What about your everlasting soul? 14:56.933 --> 14:58.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Well, yes, there's that. 14:58.233 --> 14:59.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I mean, no, and I'm not. 14:59.600 --> 15:01.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% KARA SWISHER: I'm sorry. 15:01.966 --> 15:05.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I'm not joking, you know, at the end of your life, don't you want to stand -- 15:05.466 --> 15:07.533 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% KARA SWISHER: Absolutely. 15:07.533 --> 15:09.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- don't you want to be remembered as a Kay Graham and not as, 15:09.433 --> 15:11.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I don't know, someone who just gave in to power? 15:11.500 --> 15:13.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% KARA SWISHER: Maybe if you were in an industry that was growing, 15:13.966 --> 15:16.633 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% maybe you would. But when you're in an industry that's diminishing and that you could -- it could 15:16.633 --> 15:21.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% mess up your other businesses. Everything is about shareholder value, including with the tech guys. 15:23.533 --> 15:25.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Why do you think they were sitting in the front row? Do you think they love 15:25.866 --> 15:29.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Trump? A little bit. Not very much. He's useful to them and they're definitely useful to him. 15:31.633 --> 15:33.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Let's talk about delivery systems because you spend 15:33.500 --> 15:35.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% a lot of time thinking about this and we're doing this on linear T.V. 15:37.866 --> 15:40.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Though you can see us on YouTube and everywhere else. Are there 15:40.300 --> 15:44.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% journalism values of PBS, "The New York Times," "The Atlantic," "CBS," et cetera, et cetera, "AP," 15:46.933 --> 15:51.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% "Reuters." Are these transferable to the platforms that you're very comfortable with? 15:53.866 --> 15:55.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: Yes. Absolutely. We're growing like crazy. Like, I don't -- I think we -- I 15:55.933 --> 16:00.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% do hour long interviews. I just did one on Iran this morning. Like we do substantive 16:02.333 --> 16:05.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% things. It's -- the issue is understanding the product you're making. Like journalists don't 16:05.200 --> 16:09.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% like to think of it like that, but it's the news business, right? You have to make money at it. 16:09.733 --> 16:12.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so you have to figure out should you make money through advertising? 16:12.700 --> 16:16.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Should you do subscription? Should you make do merchandise? Should you 16:16.300 --> 16:20.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% do events? So one of the things I did when I started is I had an event business. I had 16:20.700 --> 16:24.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% advertising. I had like we were looking for lots of different revenue streams. 16:24.533 --> 16:28.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: It just you have to figure out what the right one is. The other thing is the idea 16:28.133 --> 16:33.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that young people only want tiny little silly things is not true. They watch substantively, 16:35.333 --> 16:38.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% but it just depends on where they're watching. And like PBS is a really good example. My son, 16:40.033 --> 16:42.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I was doing a thing for one of the PBS, 16:42.200 --> 16:47.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the big PBS shows. And my son called me during it. And I'm like, oh, I'm doing this taping. 16:47.033 --> 16:50.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And he said, oh, I love that show. I watch it all the time. And I was like, 16:50.400 --> 16:55.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% oh, oh, you watch PBS. And he goes, no, I watch YouTube. What's the difference? It's -- there's 16:57.666 --> 17:01.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% not a difference. YouTube is television now. And if you aren't hurtling towards it at this 17:01.733 --> 17:06.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% point and someday it won't be. But if you aren't hurtling towards YouTube right now, 17:08.166 --> 17:09.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you're making an enormous mistake as a media company. 17:09.733 --> 17:13.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. So for you, quality, attention span, 17:13.266 --> 17:17.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% all these issues are platform agnostic when it comes to this. 17:17.733 --> 17:19.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Correct. 17:19.933 --> 17:21.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Do you -- I mean, that's the most hopeful thing I've heard in a while, 17:21.466 --> 17:22.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the idea that young people actually have attention span. 17:22.900 --> 17:24.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% KARA SWISHER: They do. 17:24.433 --> 17:25.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It's like what you're suggesting. They 17:25.733 --> 17:27.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% just have attention spans for good things. 17:27.866 --> 17:31.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: They're very discerning media people. It's just let's make things that 17:31.733 --> 17:35.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% they like. They do pay attention. They do like longer things. I think it's just a 17:35.433 --> 17:39.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% question of what -- we spent a lot of time on the distribution system. And when I was 17:39.833 --> 17:43.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% at "The Washington Post," I'm like when I started covering AOL, which I was the first 17:43.433 --> 17:48.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% reporter to do that, I thought everything that can be digitized will be digitized. 17:48.400 --> 17:53.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% So why are we doing this thing with the paper? I never understood it. And when I went to "The 17:55.466 --> 17:57.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Wall Street Journal," we were in one of those meetings and you've been in a hundred of these. 17:57.600 --> 18:01.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Like, how do we get young people to read the newspaper? And it's all old people in the room, 18:01.500 --> 18:05.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% which is my favorite part. And I happen to have been a young person at the time. 18:05.200 --> 18:09.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And I put up my hand and they seldom invited me to meetings. And I go, well, 18:09.200 --> 18:12.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% tape a joint between every page. I don't know something like that. And they're like, 18:12.400 --> 18:14.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that's not funny. I'm like, no, it is. 18:14.366 --> 18:16.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: No, that's funny. 18:16.366 --> 18:18.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: That's a good, good idea because they're not reading the print 18:18.800 --> 18:23.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% paper. So give it to them. If they want to -- if you -- if they want to eat it, 18:23.433 --> 18:28.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% put it on salami and give it to them like, what do you care? And I think that's what has happened. 18:29.933 --> 18:32.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I would just I wouldn't put a joint in every 18:32.033 --> 18:35.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% page because that could run up here. That could run up your costs a lot. The -- how 18:37.900 --> 18:39.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% do we -- let's talk about A.I. because another area that you're thinking about 18:39.966 --> 18:44.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% all the time. How do we keep A.I., we're heading to an election, obviously, '28. 18:44.300 --> 18:45.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Sure. 18:45.600 --> 18:47.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: How do we keep a fakery 18:47.166 --> 18:51.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% from just totally tsunami in our understanding of reality? 18:53.966 --> 18:57.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: I have to say I am -- I pay a lot of attention to A.I. now. Look, look at 18:57.033 --> 19:01.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the damage the Internet has done. Look at the damage. And this is the Internet on steroids. 19:01.733 --> 19:04.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, wait, stop. Just go back to this. 19:04.233 --> 19:09.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% What is the -- define the damage that the Internet has done to the politics? 19:11.366 --> 19:13.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: The ability for malevolent players to screw with people like all the time, 19:13.333 --> 19:17.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% like the information flood before. We used to have an information 19:17.500 --> 19:20.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% desert with a lot of people. We did. People didn't have a lot of choices. 19:20.766 --> 19:24.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: Maybe a local station. Now they have a flood. And so that's 19:24.233 --> 19:29.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% just as bad as a desert. Like either way, it's not a good thing. And so with A.I., 19:29.033 --> 19:34.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you can really do things. And on the good part, you could solve cancer maybe. On the bad part, 19:36.133 --> 19:39.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% on an interesting part, you like the West Wing, we're going to make you 10 more episodes, 19:41.966 --> 19:44.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% 10 more seasons. We don't even need to find the actors anymore. That's kind of cool. Like -- 19:44.700 --> 19:46.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Explain how that would work. 19:46.300 --> 19:48.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% KARA SWISHER: They would feed the show. The show has seven, 19:48.400 --> 19:52.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% eight seasons, whatever it is you feed it in and you make it again. 19:52.200 --> 19:53.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. And you tell -- you -- 19:53.433 --> 19:54.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% KARA SWISHER: I would like, yes. 19:54.966 --> 19:57.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- to tell the A.I. just go make a new season. 19:57.366 --> 20:00.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Go make. And I would like there to be more of this. I would like this to happen. 20:00.866 --> 20:05.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: There's all kinds of things. But it could also create all kinds of confusion, 20:05.500 --> 20:09.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% especially around video. That's -- if you initially everyone was like, oh, it's got 20:09.500 --> 20:14.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% six fingers or three. Well, today it does. But go back and look at early Internet websites. 20:16.733 --> 20:19.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% KARA SWISHER: You know, the biggest, most popular website at the beginning of the Internet was 20:20.800 --> 20:23.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a camera pointed at a coffee pot that was making coffee. 20:23.600 --> 20:26.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KARA SWISHER: We're way beyond that. And you couldn't have any. What you have to 20:26.866 --> 20:29.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% do is anticipate what you can't anticipate. Could 20:29.600 --> 20:34.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you have anticipated when the app store started Uber? Maybe. Nobody. You know -- 20:36.333 --> 20:38.000 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, somebody did and then they got rich. Yeah. 20:38.000 --> 20:40.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% KARA SWISHER: Somebody did. But at the beginning, you didn't. 20:40.033 --> 20:43.300 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KARA SWISHER: You didn't know. And so I can -- you could see all kinds of really 20:43.300 --> 20:48.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% interesting media applications for A.I. You could also see easily dangerous ones. 20:48.233 --> 20:53.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: What would you do to stop the wave, the coming wave of unreality that 20:55.300 --> 20:58.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% could affect, look, on the American domestic level, it can affect our politics and maybe 21:00.600 --> 21:04.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% violence at the margins? But we just saw Mountainhead. I think that's -- 21:04.900 --> 21:06.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: Yes. Mountainhead. 21:06.266 --> 21:07.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Mountainhead. You know, what -- 21:07.633 --> 21:09.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Jesse, who was successful. He also -- 21:09.866 --> 21:14.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yeah, yeah. I mean, which is great. And it wasn't as crazy and satirical. 21:16.500 --> 21:18.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% It kind of felt like, oh, this -- these are things that could happen. You could foment 21:18.666 --> 21:23.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% large scale violence by the introduction of fake video. How does it stop? How does it not? 21:25.466 --> 21:27.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: Well, one of the great lines in that was like, well, you got something funny 21:27.533 --> 21:31.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% like Snoopy with a giant penis. There was, remember that? Or you have this. And what 21:31.600 --> 21:36.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% was interesting about that movie is that, there was a guy in it who was the good A.I. guy, right? 21:38.766 --> 21:41.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: Was he so good? Because what he said is, what would you feel like if you if 21:43.766 --> 21:46.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% information cancer was there and you had the cure? He was more interested in the money he 21:46.500 --> 21:51.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% could make doing it. And so the question is, should we put -- there's ways to follow this 21:53.433 --> 21:56.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% video to make sure it's real. Should we legislate that? Should we -- that's the 21:56.500 --> 22:00.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% kind of stuff our legislators should be and are not thinking about whatsoever. 22:00.100 --> 22:04.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But they did know legislation against tech companies. They let them run rampant across 22:04.533 --> 22:09.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% our media. They let them run rampant across our politics. And, you know, 22:09.500 --> 22:13.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% these are digital arms dealers in a very, very clear way. And we never 22:13.733 --> 22:16.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% did anything about it. And we're not going to under this administration. 22:16.400 --> 22:19.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And, you know, these people better than almost any reporter, 22:19.900 --> 22:24.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% any sense that they know that they're riding a very wild horse and that they 22:26.566 --> 22:29.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% have to get this under control before an election goes sideways? 22:29.233 --> 22:33.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: They don't care. I wish you would understand that everyone's like, how could they? 22:33.100 --> 22:38.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I'm like, they don't care. They're interested in shareholder value. And you must understand -- I 22:40.233 --> 22:43.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% know you're down with the soul thing. They don't care. And they don't think they're to blame, 22:43.433 --> 22:47.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% by the way. They think people are to blame. They think cable is to blame. The media is 22:47.033 --> 22:51.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to blame. They are -- they're the biggest blame throwers. They're just making stuff. 22:51.300 --> 22:55.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And however people use it, it's sort of the guns don't kill people, people kill people. 22:55.533 --> 22:58.566 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, it's like a, it's the drug dealer analogy is if 22:58.566 --> 23:01.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% they want to, I mean, I can't control somebody wants drugs. 23:01.233 --> 23:03.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% KARA SWISHER: Of course you can. 23:03.100 --> 23:05.300 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Of course you can. And one of the things is they've never been 23:05.300 --> 23:09.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% subject to any regulation. And the regulation they've been subject to is helpful to them, 23:11.200 --> 23:12.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Section 230. They can do whatever they want. And let me tell you, 23:12.933 --> 23:15.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% sometimes that leads to great things. Sometimes it leads to precise. 23:15.800 --> 23:20.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You know, this amazing E.O. Wilson line, the, you know, the primatology, 23:20.466 --> 23:25.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the evolutionary biologist. He says that the central challenge of our age is we 23:27.266 --> 23:30.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% have paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions and godlike technology. 23:30.300 --> 23:31.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: Right. Exactly. 23:31.833 --> 23:33.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And so it's -- that's what we're heading into. 23:33.566 --> 23:35.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KARA SWISHER: But they're also rich. That is the part you're not 23:35.833 --> 23:37.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% figuring in. These people are -- I'm waiting to -- 23:37.900 --> 23:39.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: They fund your technology. 23:39.966 --> 23:42.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: Right. It's -- they have now power -- they were not interested in 23:42.233 --> 23:45.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Washington. I had Bill Gates to "The Washington Post" once and he's like, 23:45.033 --> 23:48.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% oh, Washington, like he used to be like that. I don't have a lobbyist here. He 23:48.533 --> 23:52.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% was in front of Mrs. Graham, the rest in those lunches they used to have upstairs. 23:52.133 --> 23:54.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: I don't care about Washington. They care about Washington, 23:54.700 --> 23:58.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% which is why they're here buying, you know, the coin operated president. 23:58.633 --> 24:03.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. The -- there's so much to talk about. We have time for one more question. 24:05.400 --> 24:08.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It's a little bit of an impossible one, but try anyway. 24:08.400 --> 24:11.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Ten years from now, how do you think we're going to be getting our 24:11.666 --> 24:16.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% information? Obviously, Washington Week and The Atlantic and your podcasts, but put those aside. 24:17.866 --> 24:19.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Now I'll be dead probably. 24:19.900 --> 24:20.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Put that -- you're not going to be dead. You're very healthy. 24:20.833 --> 24:22.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: I'll be old and -- 24:22.133 --> 24:22.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We're all going to be older. 24:22.933 --> 24:24.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Right. 24:24.300 --> 24:26.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: How are we getting information? 24:26.333 --> 24:28.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: You know, I do think there's a real business for good information and 24:28.400 --> 24:31.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% really good reporting. I don't think that ever changes. I really don't. 24:31.400 --> 24:33.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That's the interesting about Substack, by the way. 24:33.200 --> 24:35.300 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KARA SWISHER: Right. JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Not a lot of reporting on. 24:35.300 --> 24:38.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KARA SWISHER: No, there's not. But there's interesting insight into part. But that 24:38.533 --> 24:43.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% doesn't mean you can't still make a business. You know, to me, you run toward where people have a 24:43.100 --> 24:47.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% need and they have a need for great and good information. And I think that doesn't change. 24:47.600 --> 24:50.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% What they -- you do have to understand is the delivery. You're going to get everything in 24:50.800 --> 24:54.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% your eyes. There's going to be -- you're going to be wearing things. They're not going to look like 24:54.866 --> 24:59.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% what they -- they're a little heavy right now. But everything will be -- if you see one movie, 25:02.000 --> 25:04.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% watch "Minority Report." That was writ -- that was done. They had consultants that I 25:04.533 --> 25:09.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% think were brilliant in terms of where things were going. Everything will be monitored, 25:09.500 --> 25:13.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% surveilled. They'll know when you walk in. They'll know what you want. And 25:13.033 --> 25:17.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that's -- that to me. And so make good products rather than bad ones. They'll 25:17.266 --> 25:22.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% sell just as well. But the bad products will also, just like Twinkies do. Be very popular. 25:25.566 --> 25:28.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We're going to have to leave it there for now. Your assignment 25:28.133 --> 25:33.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% at home is to watch "Minority Report." I want to thank you all for watching. I want to thank 25:35.166 --> 25:38.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Kara for joining us. And you could watch Washington Week with the Atlantic anytime 25:38.300 --> 25:43.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% on YouTube or online at PBS.org/WashingtonWeek. I'm Jeffrey Goldberg. Good night from Washington.