1 00:00:01,766 --> 00:00:04,900 Good evening and welcome to Washington Week. So, we just saw one of the most 2 00:00:04,900 --> 00:00:09,900 unusual debates in the history of American politics. One candidate, a convicted felon, 3 00:00:11,833 --> 00:00:14,900 made up stories, claimed achievements that aren't his to claim, and blustered his way 4 00:00:14,900 --> 00:00:19,900 past legitimate questions about the insurrection. And then there's the guy who lost the debate. The 5 00:00:21,833 --> 00:00:24,933 sitting president seemed pale, tentative, befuddled, and at times incoherent. It 6 00:00:24,933 --> 00:00:29,933 was a stunning performance, even for people who understand the challenges of being 81. 7 00:00:31,300 --> 00:00:33,400 Following Joe Biden's alarming debate performance, 8 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:37,866 Democrats here in Washington and around the country are panicking. So what happens next? 9 00:00:39,866 --> 00:00:42,333 Joining me tonight to discuss all this is Leigh Ann Caldwell, an anchor for Washington 10 00:00:42,333 --> 00:00:47,233 Post Live and a co-author of the Early Brief newsletter, Eugene Daniels is a White House 11 00:00:47,233 --> 00:00:52,066 correspondent for Politico and a co-author of Playbook, Nikole Killion is a congressional 12 00:00:52,066 --> 00:00:57,033 correspondent with CBS News, and Mark Leibovich is my colleague and a staff writer at The Atlantic. 13 00:00:59,133 --> 00:01:03,833 So, Mark, let me begin with you. You've been saying for a couple of years, in fact, 14 00:01:06,100 --> 00:01:09,666 that Biden's age is going to be a huge problem for the Democrats. Here's what you wrote two years 15 00:01:11,833 --> 00:01:15,200 ago. Two years ago, by the way, not yesterday. Biden is by no means the more eloquent character 16 00:01:17,300 --> 00:01:21,400 he was in his younger days. It can be painful to watch him give prepared speeches. His tone 17 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:25,600 can be tentative and certain sentences can become hopscotching journeys. His aides in 18 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:29,700 the room look visibly nervous at times. Biden worked to overcome a stutter during his youth 19 00:01:29,700 --> 00:01:34,700 and in general it can become more difficult for stutters to conceal these effects as they age. 20 00:01:36,833 --> 00:01:40,533 So, I have to ask you today, do you feel vindicated in your judgment about the president? 21 00:01:42,866 --> 00:01:46,100 Mark Leibovich, Staff Writer, The Atlantic: Not necessarily, I mean, I would say that I'm still 22 00:01:46,100 --> 00:01:51,066 kind of stunned by the funereal environment that last night kind of unleashed upon so 23 00:01:53,333 --> 00:01:56,100 many Democrats that I've been talking to. Look, I think it's there for all to see. There's been this 24 00:01:58,433 --> 00:02:01,300 two-step of Democratic sort of rhetoric, which is, in private, they all basically agree, in public, 25 00:02:03,666 --> 00:02:08,200 they are going to sort of vouch for Biden and say he's never been sharper and so forth. I 26 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:13,200 wrote that two years ago. I didn't break the story that he's old, but I would also argue that even 27 00:02:15,533 --> 00:02:20,266 18 months ago, two years ago, there's been some decline that a lot of people have noticed, right? 28 00:02:22,233 --> 00:02:25,400 Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. Eugene, there were low expectations. It was still stunning. 29 00:02:27,433 --> 00:02:29,366 Eugene Daniels, Washington Correspondent, Politico: It was surprising. It was shocking, 30 00:02:29,366 --> 00:02:33,700 I think, for all of us, I was at the political -- the office with all of my 31 00:02:33,700 --> 00:02:38,700 co-workers and doing the fun political thing where it's so excited. He starts talking. And 32 00:02:40,833 --> 00:02:44,233 some of the -- it wasn't even like there were sentences. There were just like words at times, 33 00:02:44,233 --> 00:02:48,366 right, especially at the beginning. And that happened for a while. But when he 34 00:02:48,366 --> 00:02:53,300 said we beat Medicare, the question where he talked about COVID and then Medicare, 35 00:02:53,300 --> 00:02:57,033 I mean, he said we beat Medicare. And that is when my phone started blowing up, 36 00:02:57,033 --> 00:03:00,833 and Democrats started being really worried because they were like, oh, we beat Medicare. 37 00:03:00,833 --> 00:03:05,033 What are you talking about? That happened over and over and over and over again last night. 38 00:03:05,033 --> 00:03:09,033 And it felt that he had prepared for a completely different debate than they were going to get, 39 00:03:09,033 --> 00:03:14,033 right? He, at times, wanted to attack Donald Trump personally, right? He called him a wimp. 40 00:03:16,066 --> 00:03:20,666 He said he was a convicted felon, which did seem to bother Trump. But at the beginning, 41 00:03:20,666 --> 00:03:25,666 he didn't seem like he knew what he was doing. And a lot of people talk it up to no teleprompter, 42 00:03:27,966 --> 00:03:32,433 but it wasn't just that he looked -- he seemed old. He seemed like he didn't know what was going 43 00:03:32,433 --> 00:03:37,433 on. He's like shuffled out on stage, all of those kinds of things. That was what I heard and saw. 44 00:03:39,833 --> 00:03:43,033 Jeffrey Goldberg: I hesitate to show this, that moment, because it's somewhat painful. Regardless 45 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:50,233 of your partisan leaning, it's painful to watch. But I think we should remind our 46 00:03:50,233 --> 00:03:55,133 viewers what that moment about 12 minutes into the debate where everybody was sort of like, 47 00:03:55,133 --> 00:03:59,733 oh, this is going sideways. This is that Medicaid moment. We should watch. 48 00:03:59,733 --> 00:04:03,333 Joe Biden, U.S. President: We'd be able to help make sure that all those things we need to do, 49 00:04:03,333 --> 00:04:08,333 child care, elder care, making sure that we continue to strengthen our health care system, 50 00:04:09,666 --> 00:04:11,766 making sure that we're able to make every single, 51 00:04:11,766 --> 00:04:15,866 solitary person eligible for what I've been able to do with the COVID -- excuse me, 52 00:04:18,633 --> 00:04:23,633 with dealing with everything we have to do with -- look, if -- we finally beat Medicare. 53 00:04:29,700 --> 00:04:34,700 Jeffrey Goldberg: Leigh Ann, what do you think is going on here? Is this 54 00:04:36,933 --> 00:04:41,266 just aging? Was that overpreparation, as Eugene suggested? Is it cognitive 55 00:04:41,266 --> 00:04:46,266 decline? Is it being in the presence of someone he clearly can't stand? 56 00:04:48,500 --> 00:04:51,933 Leigh Ann Caldwell, Anchor, Washington Post Live: So, it depends on who you talk to. You know, 57 00:04:53,700 --> 00:04:57,633 Republicans have made age a primary focus of this campaign against Donald 58 00:04:59,333 --> 00:05:03,066 Trump with Joe Biden. There're some aides who say that he had a cold, 59 00:05:06,066 --> 00:05:11,066 that he was actually sick. There are others who say the preparation wasn't good. And so 60 00:05:13,733 --> 00:05:18,733 we don't know exactly what was going on there, except what we do know is that, 61 00:05:20,733 --> 00:05:24,000 like I just said, Republicans have been focusing on Biden's mental acuity for years. 62 00:05:26,300 --> 00:05:30,800 This is replayed over and over again on Fox News, on conservative media, Donald Trump makes fun 63 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,866 of the president over and over again. And last night was an opportunity for Biden to disprove 64 00:05:37,966 --> 00:05:41,266 all of that, and that's what didn't happen, and that's why Democrats are in freak out mode. 65 00:05:41,266 --> 00:05:46,266 Jeffrey Goldberg: Let's stay on that for a minute. I want to ask you and Nikole, 66 00:05:47,500 --> 00:05:51,300 what you're hearing from Democrats today. 67 00:05:51,300 --> 00:05:56,233 Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes. So, like Eugene, I started hearing from Democrats last night. 68 00:05:56,233 --> 00:05:58,533 Jeffrey Goldberg: That 12 minute mark. 69 00:05:58,533 --> 00:06:03,533 Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes, complete panic, complete panic. The next day, today, you know, 70 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,300 24 hours later, 16 hours later, midday, there's still that panic But what has happened is you 71 00:06:11,500 --> 00:06:16,500 heard from leaders in the Democratic Party who have said, we are standing by Biden, 72 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,833 he is our nominee. And so what it has done is it has scaled it back -- it has scaled it 73 00:06:23,966 --> 00:06:28,000 back a level because they know that now is not the moment that Biden is going to step aside, 74 00:06:29,733 --> 00:06:32,200 that there is going to be a change, but there is a lot of trepidation, 75 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:37,200 a lot of nervousness about Biden continuing to be the nominee, not only for the presidency, 76 00:06:39,300 --> 00:06:43,133 because they think the stakes are so high this election, but also down ballot as well. 77 00:06:44,466 --> 00:06:46,633 Jeffrey Goldberg: Nikole, what are you hearing? 78 00:06:46,633 --> 00:06:48,766 Nikole Killion, Congressional Correspondent, CBS News: Yes. I mean, I think to Leanne's point, 79 00:06:48,766 --> 00:06:50,866 you know, I think the thing that I would point out and talking to Democrats as well, 80 00:06:50,866 --> 00:06:55,300 both last night and today, is I do think you have to take a step back a little bit 81 00:06:55,300 --> 00:06:59,133 and take more of a measured approach here over this knee-jerk reaction. 82 00:06:59,133 --> 00:07:04,133 And I think, you know, that is what you're hearing from some Democrats in the sense that, 83 00:07:04,133 --> 00:07:09,133 yes, universally, they panned his performance, you know, fill in the adjective, terrible, poor, 84 00:07:11,066 --> 00:07:14,266 you know, horrible, disaster. But at the end of the day, one thing that a lot of 85 00:07:16,366 --> 00:07:19,933 Democrats keep coming back to is they feel that at least on the merits of this debate, 86 00:07:19,933 --> 00:07:24,933 the president was more substantive on the issue of policy relative to Donald Trump. 87 00:07:26,966 --> 00:07:30,466 And so while Trump, in their view, may have beaten the president with respect to style, 88 00:07:32,433 --> 00:07:36,133 they still feel that the president succeeded in terms of making some policy arguments. 89 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,666 Although one Democrat told me they feel that he did leave some things on the table. 90 00:07:40,666 --> 00:07:45,666 The other thing I would point to, because I talked pretty extensively today with Jim Clyburn, who, 91 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,400 as we know, is a very close ally of the president, pretty much resuscitated his presidential 92 00:07:53,533 --> 00:07:57,933 campaign. But what he told me is that he believes at this point in time that Democrats should 93 00:08:00,366 --> 00:08:03,433 stay the course. However, he did add this caveat telling me that in terms of the debate last night, 94 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,400 that was strike one. And he went on to say that if this were a ball game, he's got two more swings. 95 00:08:11,366 --> 00:08:14,800 So, I think what you're seeing there is we're going to give you a little extra room, 96 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:19,800 you know, a little arms distance here, but I think, you know, it's still a very short, 97 00:08:21,033 --> 00:08:23,166 tight rope, that the president is walking. 98 00:08:23,166 --> 00:08:27,033 Jeffrey Goldberg: And I want to get to this complicated subject of what the Democrats could 99 00:08:27,033 --> 00:08:32,033 do if they decided that Joe Biden simply can't be their candidate or Joe Biden decides himself, 100 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:38,733 but the idea is that there's two more strikes, that we're only four months out from the election, 101 00:08:40,833 --> 00:08:44,900 Mark. Is there any possibility three months away from the election, two months away from the 102 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,800 election that Biden is swapped out for another candidate or we're already too late for that? 103 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,400 Mark Leibovich: No, it's not too late. I think one month would be too late. I think, you know, 104 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:59,066 the three strikes thing, I mean, you know, Jim Clyburn, obviously close ally, 105 00:08:59,066 --> 00:09:03,233 his word's going to go a long way, but what's the second strike is like the September debate. And 106 00:09:03,233 --> 00:09:07,800 then like -- I mean, like what is that? I mean, what does that even mean in a practical sense? 107 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:12,800 I mean, look, a replacement, a swap out scenario basically begins and ends with Biden stepping down 108 00:09:15,166 --> 00:09:18,500 on his own, people convincing him in some way, which doesn't look imminent. But I do think that 109 00:09:20,766 --> 00:09:23,933 the timeframe here is over the next 72 hours or so. I mean, I think what we're hearing here, yes, 110 00:09:23,933 --> 00:09:28,933 there's a circling of the wagons, but there's panic. I mean, there is absolute panic among 111 00:09:30,966 --> 00:09:33,733 every -- a lot of people I'm talking to, I'm sure we're all hearing the same thing. 112 00:09:33,733 --> 00:09:36,933 And there's a lot of momentum here for something to happen. I mean, 113 00:09:36,933 --> 00:09:41,933 this dynamic has been in place for a long time. It's now way out in the open. 114 00:09:44,033 --> 00:09:45,833 Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. And as I pointed out, for two years, people have been, including you, 115 00:09:45,833 --> 00:09:49,800 have been saying that, you know, we've never had an 81-year-old, 82, 116 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:54,800 83, 84-year-old president before for a reason. And I would note that just a little while ago, 117 00:09:56,833 --> 00:10:01,666 The New York Times Editorial Board came out and argued that Biden should step down. 118 00:10:03,733 --> 00:10:07,666 Now, to me, that guarantees that Joe Biden will stay in the race if only to disprove 119 00:10:07,666 --> 00:10:12,666 the theory of The New York Times editorial board, but Mark is talking about the next 120 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:18,200 72 hours. What would actually have to happen? What could convince him to actually step aside? 121 00:10:20,766 --> 00:10:25,766 Leigh Ann Caldwell: Everyone I'm talking to is theorizing, hypothesizing that it comes 122 00:10:27,833 --> 00:10:31,800 down to Joe Biden, his wife. This is where the conversation has to start. It's a very 123 00:10:33,900 --> 00:10:38,300 difficult and tough conversation and that it can only start with her. There's other people 124 00:10:40,166 --> 00:10:43,366 who are saying that Chuck Schumer, Hakeem Jeffries, and Barack Obama, 125 00:10:43,366 --> 00:10:48,333 Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton also need to step in there too. But, ultimately, 126 00:10:50,633 --> 00:10:53,800 this is a very personal decision for a man who, like any president, is very egotistical and think 127 00:10:56,566 --> 00:11:01,533 that they are the ones who can and should be the next president of the United States. 128 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,266 But from a process standpoint if you want to hear about that, he is not the nominee 129 00:11:09,333 --> 00:11:14,000 yet. And so he is not the nominee until the roll call -- until he accepts the nomination 130 00:11:16,266 --> 00:11:19,500 at the convention and then there's the roll call beforehand. And so it's two different scenarios. 131 00:11:21,566 --> 00:11:25,033 If he decides to step aside and hand the baton over, which it is going to have to come from him, 132 00:11:29,466 --> 00:11:32,700 there is no one who is going to step up and say, I'm going to be -- 133 00:11:32,700 --> 00:11:34,466 Jeffrey Goldberg: The nomination can't be taken 134 00:11:34,466 --> 00:11:36,700 away from him because he doesn't have it right now in this moment. 135 00:11:36,700 --> 00:11:41,500 Leigh Ann Caldwell: Exactly. And so if that is the case, then the thousands of delegates 136 00:11:41,500 --> 00:11:46,466 will have to vote on a new nominee, which will be -- could be very, very 137 00:11:47,866 --> 00:11:49,800 Eugene Daniels: Exciting. 138 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,533 Leigh Ann Caldwell: Exciting. And then if he does, if he steps down after the 139 00:11:53,533 --> 00:11:58,500 convention and then it's the Democratic -- the smaller DNC people who then would decide. 140 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:06,600 Jeffrey Goldberg: Why are people so scared of that opening that the Democrats will 141 00:12:08,533 --> 00:12:12,766 have to decide? That's democracy after all, pick the best person to be the candidate. 142 00:12:12,766 --> 00:12:17,033 Eugene Daniels: I mean, I think it's kind of like the old way of doing things with parties, right, 143 00:12:19,133 --> 00:12:22,000 parties had a lot more power and some of these decisions were made behind closed doors. The 144 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:27,000 Democratic Party has gone out of their way to talk about how important small D democracy is, 145 00:12:29,100 --> 00:12:32,100 and one man, one woman, one vote, we all are going to do this together. And so there's 146 00:12:32,100 --> 00:12:37,100 almost no way I see them, you know, taking it from him and doing it behind closed doors. 147 00:12:39,166 --> 00:12:42,200 And I also think what I have found really interesting is kind of the wish casting of he's 148 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:47,200 going to get out of the race and then he is going to do anything but endorse his vice president 149 00:12:49,500 --> 00:12:54,266 and then all of the J.B. Pritzkers, the Gretchen Whitmers, the Gavin Newsoms, are going to be able 150 00:12:56,666 --> 00:13:01,100 to hop skip and jump over the first black woman who's been vice president and who's on the ticket 151 00:13:03,366 --> 00:13:06,433 with him currently, who would have who would inherit his infrastructure if you were to leave. 152 00:13:07,733 --> 00:13:09,733 Jeffrey Goldberg: And, by the way, has been doing 153 00:13:09,733 --> 00:13:14,100 better with the Democratic base than in the first couple of years of her term. 154 00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:18,400 Eugene Daniels: 100 percent the base and the kind of largely, right? Like they have done a better 155 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:23,133 job at realizing she doesn't need to be popular with every single person in the Democratic Party. 156 00:13:23,133 --> 00:13:28,133 She needs to find her lane and kind of stick there. And we had a poll recently that said 157 00:13:30,533 --> 00:13:33,233 in 2020, so there's a caveat there, but 41 percent of Democrats would pick her. The next person would 158 00:13:35,333 --> 00:13:38,866 be Pete Buttigieg at 15 percent, Gavin Newsom at 14 percent. So, she's in a good position. 159 00:13:40,833 --> 00:13:44,500 Again, this is wish casting, because unless Dr. Jill Biden and Valerie Biden Owens, 160 00:13:46,466 --> 00:13:49,300 his sister, go to him and do this, it is almost impossible to see how he steps up. 161 00:13:49,300 --> 00:13:52,200 Jeffrey Goldberg: Well, staying on that, I want to ask both of you this question. Imagine, 162 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:57,200 and maybe this is like we all watch too much West Wing, or we study too much scandal, 163 00:13:59,333 --> 00:14:03,233 or we watch -- or we look back to the Watergate period when the grandees of the Republican Party 164 00:14:05,433 --> 00:14:10,433 went to Richard Nixon and said, like, the game is up here. The idea that. Barack Obama, 165 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:16,700 Hillary Clinton, Hakeem Jeffries, Chuck Schumer could get in a car, go over to the 166 00:14:18,766 --> 00:14:21,400 White House and say -- it would be a motorcade actually. It would be a very large motorcade. 167 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,366 Mark Leibovich: It would be a Zoom meeting because otherwise it would be discovered. 168 00:14:25,366 --> 00:14:29,133 Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes, they do. Yes, the world's most meaningful -- the world's most 169 00:14:29,133 --> 00:14:34,133 important Zoom meeting. And say to him, look, you're a great American hero. You know, 170 00:14:36,133 --> 00:14:40,033 you slayed the dragon, you know, and you've done a good job, from our perspective, 171 00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:47,300 on a policy. But, really, democracy is at stake, not just the Democratic Party 172 00:14:49,433 --> 00:14:53,100 rule. Is there any chance that, A, that would happen, and, B, that it would have any effect? 173 00:14:53,100 --> 00:14:54,700 Nikole Killion: I don't think that will happen. I mean, you know -- 174 00:14:54,700 --> 00:14:57,433 Jeffrey Goldberg: Nikole's like, stop talking about it. Stop. 175 00:14:57,433 --> 00:14:59,200 Nikole Killion: I don't mean to burst your bubble, but I -- 176 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,566 Jeffrey Goldberg: No, I have no bubble. I just have a screenplay. 177 00:15:02,566 --> 00:15:06,100 Nikole Killion: You know, the president has been in politics for 40 years. Who has the 178 00:15:06,100 --> 00:15:10,400 right to tell him to step aside? I mean, as Leigh Ann said, that is his decision to make. 179 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,433 Jeffrey Goldberg: Well, I mean, the people, though. 180 00:15:12,433 --> 00:15:14,300 Nikole Killion: And I would say, say, you know, especially working on Capitol Hill, 181 00:15:14,300 --> 00:15:18,766 there are a number of octogenarians up there. So, quite frankly -- 182 00:15:18,766 --> 00:15:20,866 Jeffrey Goldberg: They have a strong lobby. 183 00:15:20,866 --> 00:15:23,866 Nikole Killion: But I say that from the standpoint, but they have still continued 184 00:15:23,866 --> 00:15:28,866 to do their job, even when there has also been, you know, similar speculation and chatter and talk 185 00:15:30,966 --> 00:15:35,200 about their mental cognition. I mean, Dianne Feinstein worked until her death. Obviously, 186 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:40,200 in the case of leader Mitch McConnell, he did make a decision to step aside from leadership. 187 00:15:43,666 --> 00:15:48,133 But, you know, look at Bernie Sanders. He's running for re-election. He's 82. 188 00:15:48,133 --> 00:15:53,133 So, I mean, it really is just a very personal, intimate decision for these lawmakers, 189 00:15:55,400 --> 00:16:00,100 and granted, you know, the president may have had a difficult night. But as many Democrats 190 00:16:02,233 --> 00:16:06,100 have argued, you know, are you going to throw away three and a half years for one night, 191 00:16:07,766 --> 00:16:09,233 and I don't think Democrats are ready to make that call just yet. 192 00:16:09,233 --> 00:16:11,433 Jeffrey Goldberg: Mark? 193 00:16:11,433 --> 00:16:14,933 Mark Leibovich: Yes. I bristle a little bit at the, it's a very personal decision. It is not a 194 00:16:17,300 --> 00:16:20,000 personal -- I mean, it is a personal decision on some level, but this is a massively consequential 195 00:16:22,066 --> 00:16:25,433 national decision that so much is riding on. And it's not like Mitt Romney or Nikki Haley 196 00:16:27,566 --> 00:16:31,233 or John McCain is, you know, standing on the stage with Joe Biden. And it's not like this 197 00:16:33,333 --> 00:16:36,933 all started last night. This is culminating a narrative. And it's not just a narrative. 198 00:16:38,766 --> 00:16:40,666 I mean, people can plainly see it. It's not just what Republicans have 199 00:16:40,666 --> 00:16:45,600 been pushing. It's not an argument. It's not a political tool here. I mean, 200 00:16:47,333 --> 00:16:49,433 it is plain to the naked eye what has been happening. There's a level 201 00:16:49,433 --> 00:16:54,433 of decline. It was really, you know, cast into great and tragic relief last night. 202 00:16:56,633 --> 00:16:59,533 Eugene Daniels: Mark, and I think the thing is that Nikole is saying is like, because it's not 203 00:16:59,533 --> 00:17:04,533 new, it is now too late. Had they done this before he announced, before they made that big video 204 00:17:06,633 --> 00:17:09,800 before he said he was going to run, I think that's different. I think you could have had Hillary 205 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:14,800 Clinton and Barack Obama and Chuck Schumer also old go to the White House, go to Camp David, get 206 00:17:17,066 --> 00:17:22,066 on a zoom and say, look, we appreciate what you did, but it is time for us to open the primary. 207 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,000 You said you were going to be a bridge during the election. The bridge needs to happen now. 208 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,466 And I think that's the issue is because now the timing it is -- it is possible, 209 00:17:30,466 --> 00:17:33,900 right? This is something that time has not run out. So, important to 210 00:17:33,900 --> 00:17:38,900 remember the Biden campaign chose June 27th as the debate before he was the nominee. So, 211 00:17:40,700 --> 00:17:43,833 they put themselves in this position, they made a bet that they were going 212 00:17:43,833 --> 00:17:47,900 to have a great debate and then it was going to focus the American people on the choice. 213 00:17:47,900 --> 00:17:49,966 Jeffrey Goldberg: Leigh Ann, I want to come to you in a minute, 214 00:17:49,966 --> 00:17:53,866 but I also want to watch a clip from Joe Biden today that a little bit buttresses 215 00:17:56,700 --> 00:18:01,000 what Nikole is saying. Let's just watch this for a second. 216 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:06,000 Joe Biden: I know I'm not a young man. I don't speak as smoothly as I used to. I 217 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,233 don't debate as well as I used to. But I know what I do know. I know how to tell 218 00:18:13,266 --> 00:18:18,100 the truth and I know how to do this job. I know how to get things done. And I know, 219 00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:26,100 like millions of Americans know, when you get knocked down, you get back up. 220 00:18:28,033 --> 00:18:32,433 Jeffrey Goldberg: I love Red Bull too, so I'm totally with that. But, I mean, 221 00:18:32,433 --> 00:18:37,433 there is this interesting question I kind of want you to litigate this disagreement between Mark 222 00:18:39,533 --> 00:18:43,100 and Nikole in a way. Is what we saw Thursday night, is that a culmination of a decline, 223 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:53,800 or is that a very bad night? And I'd love to know your own opinions, 224 00:18:56,533 --> 00:19:01,533 and I'd love to know what you think the people who run the Democratic Party think. 225 00:19:03,566 --> 00:19:06,066 Leigh Ann Caldwell: Okay, so in that clip he was also reading a teleprompter, which is 226 00:19:06,066 --> 00:19:10,333 much different than standing at a debate, standing next to his nemesis, Donald Trump. But I will tell 227 00:19:13,066 --> 00:19:18,066 you what I have heard over the past year or two, mostly year, I guess, mostly from Republicans who 228 00:19:20,633 --> 00:19:25,633 have been in the room with President Biden through negotiations, that some days he is very strong 229 00:19:28,066 --> 00:19:33,066 and some days he is not. And I think that last night was one of the days that he is not strong. 230 00:19:36,100 --> 00:19:39,300 And I think that the thing is, people aren't just thinking about today, 231 00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:44,300 how he is today. He will be 86 years old in four years. And what happened last night is 232 00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:50,866 also distracting about Donald Trump and his debate performance and his mistruths, 233 00:19:52,700 --> 00:19:57,700 his lies that he continues to tell, and spinning of history, really. 234 00:19:59,666 --> 00:20:02,100 Eugene Daniels: It's the inconsistency that is a problem for a lot of Democrats, right? 235 00:20:02,100 --> 00:20:06,833 Because it's -- I haven't dated in a while because I'm married, but like, breadcrumbing, which is, 236 00:20:06,833 --> 00:20:11,133 you kind of give people just enough to keep coming back. It's not ghosting, right? You don't go away, 237 00:20:11,133 --> 00:20:13,900 but you give them just a little bit. And so they say, you know what, actually, I don't 238 00:20:13,900 --> 00:20:17,400 need to break up with this person. I'm going to stick with them. And that's kind of what happens, 239 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:22,400 because he does this terrible debate performance then he goes to this rally in Atlanta. He does a 240 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:27,333 great job, you know, by all intents and purposes, he goes today and not just on teleprompter, 241 00:20:27,333 --> 00:20:31,200 but he just seemed different. The energy level was completely different. It was midday. So, 242 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:36,133 there's that. But that inconsistency has been the problem for years. 243 00:20:36,133 --> 00:20:39,500 Jeffrey Goldberg: Right, bread crumbing. I like that. I'm going to steal that from you.