WEBVTT 00:01.766 --> 00:04.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Good evening and welcome to Washington Week. So, we just saw one of the most 00:04.900 --> 00:09.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% unusual debates in the history of American politics. One candidate, a convicted felon, 00:11.833 --> 00:14.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% made up stories, claimed achievements that aren't his to claim, and blustered his way 00:14.900 --> 00:19.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% past legitimate questions about the insurrection. And then there's the guy who lost the debate. The 00:21.833 --> 00:24.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% sitting president seemed pale, tentative, befuddled, and at times incoherent. It 00:24.933 --> 00:29.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% was a stunning performance, even for people who understand the challenges of being 81. 00:31.300 --> 00:33.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Following Joe Biden's alarming debate performance, 00:33.400 --> 00:37.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Democrats here in Washington and around the country are panicking. So what happens next? 00:39.866 --> 00:42.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Joining me tonight to discuss all this is Leigh Ann Caldwell, an anchor for Washington 00:42.333 --> 00:47.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Post Live and a co-author of the Early Brief newsletter, Eugene Daniels is a White House 00:47.233 --> 00:52.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% correspondent for Politico and a co-author of Playbook, Nikole Killion is a congressional 00:52.066 --> 00:57.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% correspondent with CBS News, and Mark Leibovich is my colleague and a staff writer at The Atlantic. 00:59.133 --> 01:03.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, Mark, let me begin with you. You've been saying for a couple of years, in fact, 01:06.100 --> 01:09.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% that Biden's age is going to be a huge problem for the Democrats. Here's what you wrote two years 01:11.833 --> 01:15.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% ago. Two years ago, by the way, not yesterday. Biden is by no means the more eloquent character 01:17.300 --> 01:21.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% he was in his younger days. It can be painful to watch him give prepared speeches. His tone 01:21.400 --> 01:25.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% can be tentative and certain sentences can become hopscotching journeys. His aides in 01:25.600 --> 01:29.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the room look visibly nervous at times. Biden worked to overcome a stutter during his youth 01:29.700 --> 01:34.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and in general it can become more difficult for stutters to conceal these effects as they age. 01:36.833 --> 01:40.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, I have to ask you today, do you feel vindicated in your judgment about the president? 01:42.866 --> 01:46.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Mark Leibovich, Staff Writer, The Atlantic: Not necessarily, I mean, I would say that I'm still 01:46.100 --> 01:51.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% kind of stunned by the funereal environment that last night kind of unleashed upon so 01:53.333 --> 01:56.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% many Democrats that I've been talking to. Look, I think it's there for all to see. There's been this 01:58.433 --> 02:01.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% two-step of Democratic sort of rhetoric, which is, in private, they all basically agree, in public, 02:03.666 --> 02:08.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% they are going to sort of vouch for Biden and say he's never been sharper and so forth. I 02:08.200 --> 02:13.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% wrote that two years ago. I didn't break the story that he's old, but I would also argue that even 02:15.533 --> 02:20.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% 18 months ago, two years ago, there's been some decline that a lot of people have noticed, right? 02:22.233 --> 02:25.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. Eugene, there were low expectations. It was still stunning. 02:27.433 --> 02:29.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Eugene Daniels, Washington Correspondent, Politico: It was surprising. It was shocking, 02:29.366 --> 02:33.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% I think, for all of us, I was at the political -- the office with all of my 02:33.700 --> 02:38.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% co-workers and doing the fun political thing where it's so excited. He starts talking. And 02:40.833 --> 02:44.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% some of the -- it wasn't even like there were sentences. There were just like words at times, 02:44.233 --> 02:48.366 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% right, especially at the beginning. And that happened for a while. But when he 02:48.366 --> 02:53.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% said we beat Medicare, the question where he talked about COVID and then Medicare, 02:53.300 --> 02:57.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% I mean, he said we beat Medicare. And that is when my phone started blowing up, 02:57.033 --> 03:00.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and Democrats started being really worried because they were like, oh, we beat Medicare. 03:00.833 --> 03:05.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% What are you talking about? That happened over and over and over and over again last night. 03:05.033 --> 03:09.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And it felt that he had prepared for a completely different debate than they were going to get, 03:09.033 --> 03:14.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% right? He, at times, wanted to attack Donald Trump personally, right? He called him a wimp. 03:16.066 --> 03:20.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% He said he was a convicted felon, which did seem to bother Trump. But at the beginning, 03:20.666 --> 03:25.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% he didn't seem like he knew what he was doing. And a lot of people talk it up to no teleprompter, 03:27.966 --> 03:32.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% but it wasn't just that he looked -- he seemed old. He seemed like he didn't know what was going 03:32.433 --> 03:37.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% on. He's like shuffled out on stage, all of those kinds of things. That was what I heard and saw. 03:39.833 --> 03:43.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Jeffrey Goldberg: I hesitate to show this, that moment, because it's somewhat painful. Regardless 03:45.600 --> 03:50.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of your partisan leaning, it's painful to watch. But I think we should remind our 03:50.233 --> 03:55.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% viewers what that moment about 12 minutes into the debate where everybody was sort of like, 03:55.133 --> 03:59.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% oh, this is going sideways. This is that Medicaid moment. We should watch. 03:59.733 --> 04:03.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Joe Biden, U.S. President: We'd be able to help make sure that all those things we need to do, 04:03.333 --> 04:08.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% child care, elder care, making sure that we continue to strengthen our health care system, 04:09.666 --> 04:11.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% making sure that we're able to make every single, 04:11.766 --> 04:15.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% solitary person eligible for what I've been able to do with the COVID -- excuse me, 04:18.633 --> 04:23.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% with dealing with everything we have to do with -- look, if -- we finally beat Medicare. 04:29.700 --> 04:34.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Jeffrey Goldberg: Leigh Ann, what do you think is going on here? Is this 04:36.933 --> 04:41.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% just aging? Was that overpreparation, as Eugene suggested? Is it cognitive 04:41.266 --> 04:46.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% decline? Is it being in the presence of someone he clearly can't stand? 04:48.500 --> 04:51.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Leigh Ann Caldwell, Anchor, Washington Post Live: So, it depends on who you talk to. You know, 04:53.700 --> 04:57.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Republicans have made age a primary focus of this campaign against Donald 04:59.333 --> 05:03.066 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Trump with Joe Biden. There're some aides who say that he had a cold, 05:06.066 --> 05:11.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that he was actually sick. There are others who say the preparation wasn't good. And so 05:13.733 --> 05:18.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% we don't know exactly what was going on there, except what we do know is that, 05:20.733 --> 05:24.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% like I just said, Republicans have been focusing on Biden's mental acuity for years. 05:26.300 --> 05:30.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% This is replayed over and over again on Fox News, on conservative media, Donald Trump makes fun 05:33.000 --> 05:35.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% of the president over and over again. And last night was an opportunity for Biden to disprove 05:37.966 --> 05:41.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% all of that, and that's what didn't happen, and that's why Democrats are in freak out mode. 05:41.266 --> 05:46.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Jeffrey Goldberg: Let's stay on that for a minute. I want to ask you and Nikole, 05:47.500 --> 05:51.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what you're hearing from Democrats today. 05:51.300 --> 05:56.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes. So, like Eugene, I started hearing from Democrats last night. 05:56.233 --> 05:58.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Jeffrey Goldberg: That 12 minute mark. 05:58.533 --> 06:03.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes, complete panic, complete panic. The next day, today, you know, 06:05.600 --> 06:09.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% 24 hours later, 16 hours later, midday, there's still that panic But what has happened is you 06:11.500 --> 06:16.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% heard from leaders in the Democratic Party who have said, we are standing by Biden, 06:18.600 --> 06:21.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% he is our nominee. And so what it has done is it has scaled it back -- it has scaled it 06:23.966 --> 06:28.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% back a level because they know that now is not the moment that Biden is going to step aside, 06:29.733 --> 06:32.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% that there is going to be a change, but there is a lot of trepidation, 06:32.200 --> 06:37.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a lot of nervousness about Biden continuing to be the nominee, not only for the presidency, 06:39.300 --> 06:43.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% because they think the stakes are so high this election, but also down ballot as well. 06:44.466 --> 06:46.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Jeffrey Goldberg: Nikole, what are you hearing? 06:46.633 --> 06:48.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Nikole Killion, Congressional Correspondent, CBS News: Yes. I mean, I think to Leanne's point, 06:48.766 --> 06:50.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you know, I think the thing that I would point out and talking to Democrats as well, 06:50.866 --> 06:55.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% both last night and today, is I do think you have to take a step back a little bit 06:55.300 --> 06:59.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and take more of a measured approach here over this knee-jerk reaction. 06:59.133 --> 07:04.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I think, you know, that is what you're hearing from some Democrats in the sense that, 07:04.133 --> 07:09.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% yes, universally, they panned his performance, you know, fill in the adjective, terrible, poor, 07:11.066 --> 07:14.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you know, horrible, disaster. But at the end of the day, one thing that a lot of 07:16.366 --> 07:19.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Democrats keep coming back to is they feel that at least on the merits of this debate, 07:19.933 --> 07:24.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% the president was more substantive on the issue of policy relative to Donald Trump. 07:26.966 --> 07:30.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so while Trump, in their view, may have beaten the president with respect to style, 07:32.433 --> 07:36.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% they still feel that the president succeeded in terms of making some policy arguments. 07:38.200 --> 07:40.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Although one Democrat told me they feel that he did leave some things on the table. 07:40.666 --> 07:45.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% The other thing I would point to, because I talked pretty extensively today with Jim Clyburn, who, 07:47.800 --> 07:51.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% as we know, is a very close ally of the president, pretty much resuscitated his presidential 07:53.533 --> 07:57.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% campaign. But what he told me is that he believes at this point in time that Democrats should 08:00.366 --> 08:03.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% stay the course. However, he did add this caveat telling me that in terms of the debate last night, 08:05.800 --> 08:09.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% that was strike one. And he went on to say that if this were a ball game, he's got two more swings. 08:11.366 --> 08:14.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, I think what you're seeing there is we're going to give you a little extra room, 08:14.800 --> 08:19.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you know, a little arms distance here, but I think, you know, it's still a very short, 08:21.033 --> 08:23.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% tight rope, that the president is walking. 08:23.166 --> 08:27.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Jeffrey Goldberg: And I want to get to this complicated subject of what the Democrats could 08:27.033 --> 08:32.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% do if they decided that Joe Biden simply can't be their candidate or Joe Biden decides himself, 08:34.400 --> 08:38.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% but the idea is that there's two more strikes, that we're only four months out from the election, 08:40.833 --> 08:44.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Mark. Is there any possibility three months away from the election, two months away from the 08:47.000 --> 08:50.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% election that Biden is swapped out for another candidate or we're already too late for that? 08:50.800 --> 08:54.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Mark Leibovich: No, it's not too late. I think one month would be too late. I think, you know, 08:54.400 --> 08:59.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the three strikes thing, I mean, you know, Jim Clyburn, obviously close ally, 08:59.066 --> 09:03.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% his word's going to go a long way, but what's the second strike is like the September debate. And 09:03.233 --> 09:07.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% then like -- I mean, like what is that? I mean, what does that even mean in a practical sense? 09:07.800 --> 09:12.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% I mean, look, a replacement, a swap out scenario basically begins and ends with Biden stepping down 09:15.166 --> 09:18.500 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% on his own, people convincing him in some way, which doesn't look imminent. But I do think that 09:20.766 --> 09:23.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the timeframe here is over the next 72 hours or so. I mean, I think what we're hearing here, yes, 09:23.933 --> 09:28.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% there's a circling of the wagons, but there's panic. I mean, there is absolute panic among 09:30.966 --> 09:33.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% every -- a lot of people I'm talking to, I'm sure we're all hearing the same thing. 09:33.733 --> 09:36.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And there's a lot of momentum here for something to happen. I mean, 09:36.933 --> 09:41.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% this dynamic has been in place for a long time. It's now way out in the open. 09:44.033 --> 09:45.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. And as I pointed out, for two years, people have been, including you, 09:45.833 --> 09:49.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% have been saying that, you know, we've never had an 81-year-old, 82, 09:49.800 --> 09:54.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% 83, 84-year-old president before for a reason. And I would note that just a little while ago, 09:56.833 --> 10:01.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The New York Times Editorial Board came out and argued that Biden should step down. 10:03.733 --> 10:07.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Now, to me, that guarantees that Joe Biden will stay in the race if only to disprove 10:07.666 --> 10:12.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the theory of The New York Times editorial board, but Mark is talking about the next 10:14.800 --> 10:18.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% 72 hours. What would actually have to happen? What could convince him to actually step aside? 10:20.766 --> 10:25.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Leigh Ann Caldwell: Everyone I'm talking to is theorizing, hypothesizing that it comes 10:27.833 --> 10:31.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% down to Joe Biden, his wife. This is where the conversation has to start. It's a very 10:33.900 --> 10:38.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% difficult and tough conversation and that it can only start with her. There's other people 10:40.166 --> 10:43.366 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% who are saying that Chuck Schumer, Hakeem Jeffries, and Barack Obama, 10:43.366 --> 10:48.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton also need to step in there too. But, ultimately, 10:50.633 --> 10:53.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% this is a very personal decision for a man who, like any president, is very egotistical and think 10:56.566 --> 11:01.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that they are the ones who can and should be the next president of the United States. 11:03.600 --> 11:07.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But from a process standpoint if you want to hear about that, he is not the nominee 11:09.333 --> 11:14.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% yet. And so he is not the nominee until the roll call -- until he accepts the nomination 11:16.266 --> 11:19.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% at the convention and then there's the roll call beforehand. And so it's two different scenarios. 11:21.566 --> 11:25.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% If he decides to step aside and hand the baton over, which it is going to have to come from him, 11:29.466 --> 11:32.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% there is no one who is going to step up and say, I'm going to be -- 11:32.700 --> 11:34.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Jeffrey Goldberg: The nomination can't be taken 11:34.466 --> 11:36.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% away from him because he doesn't have it right now in this moment. 11:36.700 --> 11:41.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Leigh Ann Caldwell: Exactly. And so if that is the case, then the thousands of delegates 11:41.500 --> 11:46.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% will have to vote on a new nominee, which will be -- could be very, very 11:47.866 --> 11:49.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Eugene Daniels: Exciting. 11:49.800 --> 11:53.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Leigh Ann Caldwell: Exciting. And then if he does, if he steps down after the 11:53.533 --> 11:58.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% convention and then it's the Democratic -- the smaller DNC people who then would decide. 12:01.600 --> 12:06.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Jeffrey Goldberg: Why are people so scared of that opening that the Democrats will 12:08.533 --> 12:12.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% have to decide? That's democracy after all, pick the best person to be the candidate. 12:12.766 --> 12:17.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Eugene Daniels: I mean, I think it's kind of like the old way of doing things with parties, right, 12:19.133 --> 12:22.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% parties had a lot more power and some of these decisions were made behind closed doors. The 12:22.000 --> 12:27.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Democratic Party has gone out of their way to talk about how important small D democracy is, 12:29.100 --> 12:32.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and one man, one woman, one vote, we all are going to do this together. And so there's 12:32.100 --> 12:37.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% almost no way I see them, you know, taking it from him and doing it behind closed doors. 12:39.166 --> 12:42.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I also think what I have found really interesting is kind of the wish casting of he's 12:42.200 --> 12:47.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% going to get out of the race and then he is going to do anything but endorse his vice president 12:49.500 --> 12:54.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and then all of the J.B. Pritzkers, the Gretchen Whitmers, the Gavin Newsoms, are going to be able 12:56.666 --> 13:01.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% to hop skip and jump over the first black woman who's been vice president and who's on the ticket 13:03.366 --> 13:06.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% with him currently, who would have who would inherit his infrastructure if you were to leave. 13:07.733 --> 13:09.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Jeffrey Goldberg: And, by the way, has been doing 13:09.733 --> 13:14.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% better with the Democratic base than in the first couple of years of her term. 13:14.100 --> 13:18.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Eugene Daniels: 100 percent the base and the kind of largely, right? Like they have done a better 13:18.400 --> 13:23.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% job at realizing she doesn't need to be popular with every single person in the Democratic Party. 13:23.133 --> 13:28.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% She needs to find her lane and kind of stick there. And we had a poll recently that said 13:30.533 --> 13:33.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% in 2020, so there's a caveat there, but 41 percent of Democrats would pick her. The next person would 13:35.333 --> 13:38.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% be Pete Buttigieg at 15 percent, Gavin Newsom at 14 percent. So, she's in a good position. 13:40.833 --> 13:44.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Again, this is wish casting, because unless Dr. Jill Biden and Valerie Biden Owens, 13:46.466 --> 13:49.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% his sister, go to him and do this, it is almost impossible to see how he steps up. 13:49.300 --> 13:52.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Jeffrey Goldberg: Well, staying on that, I want to ask both of you this question. Imagine, 13:52.200 --> 13:57.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and maybe this is like we all watch too much West Wing, or we study too much scandal, 13:59.333 --> 14:03.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% or we watch -- or we look back to the Watergate period when the grandees of the Republican Party 14:05.433 --> 14:10.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% went to Richard Nixon and said, like, the game is up here. The idea that. Barack Obama, 14:12.400 --> 14:16.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Hillary Clinton, Hakeem Jeffries, Chuck Schumer could get in a car, go over to the 14:18.766 --> 14:21.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% White House and say -- it would be a motorcade actually. It would be a very large motorcade. 14:21.400 --> 14:25.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Mark Leibovich: It would be a Zoom meeting because otherwise it would be discovered. 14:25.366 --> 14:29.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes, they do. Yes, the world's most meaningful -- the world's most 14:29.133 --> 14:34.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% important Zoom meeting. And say to him, look, you're a great American hero. You know, 14:36.133 --> 14:40.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you slayed the dragon, you know, and you've done a good job, from our perspective, 14:42.300 --> 14:47.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% on a policy. But, really, democracy is at stake, not just the Democratic Party 14:49.433 --> 14:53.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% rule. Is there any chance that, A, that would happen, and, B, that it would have any effect? 14:53.100 --> 14:54.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Nikole Killion: I don't think that will happen. I mean, you know -- 14:54.700 --> 14:57.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Jeffrey Goldberg: Nikole's like, stop talking about it. Stop. 14:57.433 --> 14:59.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Nikole Killion: I don't mean to burst your bubble, but I -- 14:59.200 --> 15:02.566 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Jeffrey Goldberg: No, I have no bubble. I just have a screenplay. 15:02.566 --> 15:06.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Nikole Killion: You know, the president has been in politics for 40 years. Who has the 15:06.100 --> 15:10.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% right to tell him to step aside? I mean, as Leigh Ann said, that is his decision to make. 15:10.400 --> 15:12.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Jeffrey Goldberg: Well, I mean, the people, though. 15:12.433 --> 15:14.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Nikole Killion: And I would say, say, you know, especially working on Capitol Hill, 15:14.300 --> 15:18.766 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% there are a number of octogenarians up there. So, quite frankly -- 15:18.766 --> 15:20.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Jeffrey Goldberg: They have a strong lobby. 15:20.866 --> 15:23.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Nikole Killion: But I say that from the standpoint, but they have still continued 15:23.866 --> 15:28.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to do their job, even when there has also been, you know, similar speculation and chatter and talk 15:30.966 --> 15:35.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% about their mental cognition. I mean, Dianne Feinstein worked until her death. Obviously, 15:35.200 --> 15:40.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% in the case of leader Mitch McConnell, he did make a decision to step aside from leadership. 15:43.666 --> 15:48.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% But, you know, look at Bernie Sanders. He's running for re-election. He's 82. 15:48.133 --> 15:53.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, I mean, it really is just a very personal, intimate decision for these lawmakers, 15:55.400 --> 16:00.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and granted, you know, the president may have had a difficult night. But as many Democrats 16:02.233 --> 16:06.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% have argued, you know, are you going to throw away three and a half years for one night, 16:07.766 --> 16:09.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and I don't think Democrats are ready to make that call just yet. 16:09.233 --> 16:11.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Jeffrey Goldberg: Mark? 16:11.433 --> 16:14.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Mark Leibovich: Yes. I bristle a little bit at the, it's a very personal decision. It is not a 16:17.300 --> 16:20.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% personal -- I mean, it is a personal decision on some level, but this is a massively consequential 16:22.066 --> 16:25.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% national decision that so much is riding on. And it's not like Mitt Romney or Nikki Haley 16:27.566 --> 16:31.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% or John McCain is, you know, standing on the stage with Joe Biden. And it's not like this 16:33.333 --> 16:36.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% all started last night. This is culminating a narrative. And it's not just a narrative. 16:38.766 --> 16:40.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I mean, people can plainly see it. It's not just what Republicans have 16:40.666 --> 16:45.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% been pushing. It's not an argument. It's not a political tool here. I mean, 16:47.333 --> 16:49.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% it is plain to the naked eye what has been happening. There's a level 16:49.433 --> 16:54.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of decline. It was really, you know, cast into great and tragic relief last night. 16:56.633 --> 16:59.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Eugene Daniels: Mark, and I think the thing is that Nikole is saying is like, because it's not 16:59.533 --> 17:04.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% new, it is now too late. Had they done this before he announced, before they made that big video 17:06.633 --> 17:09.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% before he said he was going to run, I think that's different. I think you could have had Hillary 17:09.800 --> 17:14.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Clinton and Barack Obama and Chuck Schumer also old go to the White House, go to Camp David, get 17:17.066 --> 17:22.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% on a zoom and say, look, we appreciate what you did, but it is time for us to open the primary. 17:24.200 --> 17:27.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% You said you were going to be a bridge during the election. The bridge needs to happen now. 17:27.000 --> 17:30.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I think that's the issue is because now the timing it is -- it is possible, 17:30.466 --> 17:33.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% right? This is something that time has not run out. So, important to 17:33.900 --> 17:38.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% remember the Biden campaign chose June 27th as the debate before he was the nominee. So, 17:40.700 --> 17:43.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% they put themselves in this position, they made a bet that they were going 17:43.833 --> 17:47.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to have a great debate and then it was going to focus the American people on the choice. 17:47.900 --> 17:49.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Jeffrey Goldberg: Leigh Ann, I want to come to you in a minute, 17:49.966 --> 17:53.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but I also want to watch a clip from Joe Biden today that a little bit buttresses 17:56.700 --> 18:01.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what Nikole is saying. Let's just watch this for a second. 18:01.000 --> 18:06.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Joe Biden: I know I'm not a young man. I don't speak as smoothly as I used to. I 18:08.000 --> 18:11.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% don't debate as well as I used to. But I know what I do know. I know how to tell 18:13.266 --> 18:18.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the truth and I know how to do this job. I know how to get things done. And I know, 18:21.100 --> 18:26.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% like millions of Americans know, when you get knocked down, you get back up. 18:28.033 --> 18:32.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Jeffrey Goldberg: I love Red Bull too, so I'm totally with that. But, I mean, 18:32.433 --> 18:37.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% there is this interesting question I kind of want you to litigate this disagreement between Mark 18:39.533 --> 18:43.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and Nikole in a way. Is what we saw Thursday night, is that a culmination of a decline, 18:48.800 --> 18:53.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% or is that a very bad night? And I'd love to know your own opinions, 18:56.533 --> 19:01.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and I'd love to know what you think the people who run the Democratic Party think. 19:03.566 --> 19:06.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Leigh Ann Caldwell: Okay, so in that clip he was also reading a teleprompter, which is 19:06.066 --> 19:10.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% much different than standing at a debate, standing next to his nemesis, Donald Trump. But I will tell 19:13.066 --> 19:18.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% you what I have heard over the past year or two, mostly year, I guess, mostly from Republicans who 19:20.633 --> 19:25.633 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% have been in the room with President Biden through negotiations, that some days he is very strong 19:28.066 --> 19:33.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and some days he is not. And I think that last night was one of the days that he is not strong. 19:36.100 --> 19:39.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I think that the thing is, people aren't just thinking about today, 19:39.300 --> 19:44.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% how he is today. He will be 86 years old in four years. And what happened last night is 19:46.300 --> 19:50.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% also distracting about Donald Trump and his debate performance and his mistruths, 19:52.700 --> 19:57.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% his lies that he continues to tell, and spinning of history, really. 19:59.666 --> 20:02.100 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Eugene Daniels: It's the inconsistency that is a problem for a lot of Democrats, right? 20:02.100 --> 20:06.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Because it's -- I haven't dated in a while because I'm married, but like, breadcrumbing, which is, 20:06.833 --> 20:11.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% you kind of give people just enough to keep coming back. It's not ghosting, right? You don't go away, 20:11.133 --> 20:13.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but you give them just a little bit. And so they say, you know what, actually, I don't 20:13.900 --> 20:17.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% need to break up with this person. I'm going to stick with them. And that's kind of what happens, 20:17.400 --> 20:22.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% because he does this terrible debate performance then he goes to this rally in Atlanta. He does a 20:22.400 --> 20:27.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% great job, you know, by all intents and purposes, he goes today and not just on teleprompter, 20:27.333 --> 20:31.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but he just seemed different. The energy level was completely different. It was midday. So, 20:31.200 --> 20:36.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% there's that. But that inconsistency has been the problem for years. 20:36.133 --> 20:39.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Jeffrey Goldberg: Right, bread crumbing. I like that. I'm going to steal that from you.