WEBVTT 00:02.066 --> 00:04.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We have a lot to talk about tonight, starting with the indictment of James 00:04.233 --> 00:08.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Comey and the wholesale takeover of the Justice Department by the Trump political apparatus. But 00:10.033 --> 00:12.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% we'll also talk about his pursuit of another foe, the late night comedian, 00:12.033 --> 00:16.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Jimmy Kimmel. We'll talk about Trump's views on Tylenol and Ukraine and much more. 00:18.533 --> 00:22.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Joining me tonight at the table, Stephen Hayes, the editor of the Dispatch, 00:22.066 --> 00:26.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Karen Tumulty is the chief political correspondent at The Washington Post, 00:26.133 --> 00:31.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Ali Vitali is the host of Way Too Early and the chief Congressional correspondent for the network 00:33.466 --> 00:36.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% currently known as MSNBC, and Nancy Youssef is a national security correspondent at The Atlantic. 00:38.266 --> 00:40.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I'm sorry, I just have to make the MSNBC's joke every time. 00:40.766 --> 00:42.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALI VITALI, Host, MSNBC's Way Too Early: Look, if you have to do it -- 00:42.166 --> 00:43.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I got to do it. I got to do it. 00:43.566 --> 00:45.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% ALI VITALI: Her name is what it is for right now. 00:45.000 --> 00:47.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It's like clear for me. I'm sorry. 00:47.000 --> 00:51.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The -- Karen, let's start with you. Give us the latest on the Comey indictment, 00:53.466 --> 00:58.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and more importantly what does it mean for democracy? 01:00.733 --> 01:03.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% KAREN TUMULTY, Chief Political Correspondent, The Washington Post: Well, we saw a real rapid fire 01:03.266 --> 01:08.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% series of events this week. Trump's own appointed U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia 01:13.600 --> 01:18.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% essentially refused to do this indictment after the president specifically called for it. So, 01:22.533 --> 01:27.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% he was removed. A new acting U.S. attorney, Lindsey Halligan, was put in. 01:30.133 --> 01:32.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. 01:32.100 --> 01:35.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KAREN TUMULTY: This is a woman who had been part of Trump's personal legal team, 01:37.600 --> 01:42.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% had been a White House aide whose mission had been removing what the administration 01:45.633 --> 01:50.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% deemed to be improper ideology of the Smithsonian. But she has -- 01:52.500 --> 01:54.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: She was going to be the woke inspector of this Smithsonian. 01:54.733 --> 01:57.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KAREN TUMULTY: She was. She was. But now she finds herself as the acting U.S. attorney in 02:00.100 --> 02:03.633 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Virginia who carried this indictment out. It's all of a page and a half. It's a very quick read. 02:07.033 --> 02:12.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The charges against James Comey are among allegedly lying to Congress. These are 02:15.100 --> 02:20.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% charges that are very rarely prosecuted unless they are, you know, connected to other charges. 02:24.100 --> 02:26.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. 02:26.000 --> 02:29.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KAREN TUMULTY: And potentially could, you know, put him in prison for ten years. 02:29.166 --> 02:33.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. I wanted you to all to listen to Ty Cobb, the president's former 02:33.333 --> 02:38.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% attorney who has become a critic. Listen to what he had to say about the meaning here. 02:40.533 --> 02:43.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% TY COBB, Former Trump White House Attorney: I don't think this can be reported as, you know, 02:43.500 --> 02:48.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% one or two degrees of standard deviation from the norm. This is a wholesale 180 from the norms 02:50.900 --> 02:54.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% of what made America different from third world dictatorships, authoritarian regimes and tyranny. 02:59.833 --> 03:02.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Steve, understatement, overstatement, correct? 03:02.666 --> 03:05.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% STEPHEN HAYES, Editor, The Dispatch: No. I think he's basically got it right. I mean, 03:05.333 --> 03:10.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the troubling thing -- the indictment itself, we will learn more about the case. We'll learn what 03:12.533 --> 03:15.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% they're going to argue in the coming days and weeks, but I think it's the stuff that preceded 03:15.100 --> 03:19.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the indictment that is the most troubling. It's the fact pattern that Karen laid out. 03:19.200 --> 03:22.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: The firing of the previous -- 03:22.666 --> 03:25.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% STEPHEN HAYES: The firings of previous prosecutors, the reporting widespread credible, 03:25.433 --> 03:29.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I believe, that all of these prosecutors didn't think there was enough to bring a case, 03:32.033 --> 03:35.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the sort of the sequence of events that led up to this moment, and in particular Donald Trump 03:37.500 --> 03:41.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% tweeting at his attorney general to go get this guy because I don't like him, in effect. 03:41.766 --> 03:43.666 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes. 03:43.666 --> 03:45.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% STEPHEN HAYES: That is new. We don't see that very often. And it's not new 03:45.833 --> 03:50.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% for Donald Trump because he campaigned on retribution. He told us, he told voters, 03:53.000 --> 03:55.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% this is what I'm going to do. These are the people I don't like. I'm going to get them back. 03:55.833 --> 03:58.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes. 03:58.000 --> 04:00.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% STEPHEN HAYES: But seeing him do it in this manner is so unlike the kinds of things that 04:00.633 --> 04:05.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% we've seen before, and I think that is in part what's alarming. And it should be said, 04:05.500 --> 04:10.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% this is the first. I mean, nobody thinks this ends with James Comey. He's got a long list. 04:10.266 --> 04:13.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KAREN TUMULTY: In fact, Trump today said it will not end with James. 04:13.533 --> 04:15.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes. STEPHEN HAYES: Yes. 04:15.533 --> 04:17.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want to -- I think this is a good opportunity for me to do my dramatic 04:17.700 --> 04:21.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% reading of the Pam Bondi Truth Social. I'll try to limit the drama, but you'll get the 04:23.666 --> 04:27.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% point. This is one of the most extraordinary statements Donald Trump has ever made, I think. 04:29.900 --> 04:34.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Pam -- it's almost as if it was a direct message to her that got out. Pam, I have reviewed over 04:38.066 --> 04:43.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% 30 statements in posts saying that essentially, open quote, same old story as last time, all talk, 04:43.033 --> 04:48.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% no action. Nothing is being done. What about Comey, Adam Shifty Schiff, a U.S. Senator, 04:50.133 --> 04:52.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% by the way, Letitia, question mark, question mark, question mark, question, that's the 04:52.166 --> 04:56.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% prosecutor -- the state attorney general in New York. They're all guilty as hell, 04:56.866 --> 05:01.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% but nothing is going to be done. Then we almost put in a Democrat-supported U.S. attorney in 05:01.200 --> 05:05.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Virginia with a really bad Republican past, a woke RINO who is never going to do his job. 05:05.833 --> 05:10.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And then he goes on, Lindsey Halligan is a really good lawyer and likes you 05:12.733 --> 05:14.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a lot. We can't delay any longer. It's killing our reputation and credibility. 05:14.633 --> 05:18.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% They impeached me twice and indicted me five times, exclamation point, 05:18.633 --> 05:23.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and then all caps, over nothing. Justice must be served now. President DJT. 05:25.700 --> 05:30.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, I don't know what this actually compares to in American history. It's as if almost as 05:32.500 --> 05:35.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% if President Nixon, all analogies are imperfect, this one will be imperfect, but it's President 05:35.100 --> 05:40.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Nixon went into the press room and said, the Democratic National Committee is my enemy, 05:42.166 --> 05:45.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and so I really think that the FBI needs to go right now and get all their documents 05:47.366 --> 05:50.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% at the Watergate and then give them to me so that we can manufacture a case against them. 05:52.400 --> 05:56.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I mean, it's as if Watergate is in a -- the entirety of Watergate is in a Truth Social 05:58.433 --> 06:02.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% post. I mean, maybe I'm exaggerating, but it doesn't seem like much of an exaggeration, Nancy. 06:02.866 --> 06:05.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% NANCY YOUSSEF, Staff Writer, The Atlantic: Well, and then on the Saturday Massacre, 06:05.266 --> 06:10.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% right, when you see the firing -- the attempted firing of Archibald Cox and 06:12.100 --> 06:13.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that the Attorney General wouldn't do it and the deputy wouldn't do it, 06:13.633 --> 06:14.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and the solicitor general ends up doing it, Robert Bork. 06:14.833 --> 06:17.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Robert Bork, yes. 06:17.333 --> 06:20.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% NANCY YOUSSEF: But the difference would then was that led to the impeachment. That led to people -- 06:20.366 --> 06:22.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That caused the impeachment. 06:22.533 --> 06:25.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% NANCY YOUSSSEF: That's right. Whereas in this case, we're not hearing Congress say we're going 06:25.200 --> 06:30.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to look into this, even as you note, the president has listed people who will be charged next, 06:32.100 --> 06:35.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Senator Schiff with Letitia James among others. And so I think that's the real 06:35.100 --> 06:38.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% deviation that's happening here is that this is not leading to consequence, 06:38.866 --> 06:43.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but actually appears to be sort of condoned in some ways, but with the absence of any action. 06:46.000 --> 06:50.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And I should note, when Archibald Cox is brought forward, he says whether our shall continue to be 06:50.066 --> 06:55.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a government of laws and not of men now for Congress and ultimately the American people 06:57.266 --> 06:59.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% to decide, we're at this inflection point again potentially with a different answer. 06:59.500 --> 07:04.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. We're -- that was the inflection point that led to the re-deviation 07:06.633 --> 07:10.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% or deviation back to the norm. But you cover Congress. You're talking to these people all 07:12.433 --> 07:16.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the time. Again, I'm trying to sound rational and logical and reasoned, but this is unprecedented. 07:22.133 --> 07:27.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And in ordinary times, this would provoke a seismic reaction on the part of a coequal 07:30.866 --> 07:35.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% branch of government that is supposed to monitor the other branches of government. 07:38.133 --> 07:40.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% ALI VITALI: And has not really had much of an appetite to do so, whether it be through oversight 07:40.500 --> 07:45.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% or even just the simple appropriation of funds, which is literally Congress's constitutional job. 07:46.133 --> 07:48.566 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. 07:48.566 --> 07:51.033 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% ALI VITALI: They've seemed to really be willing to farm that out. And we'll watch how that ends 07:51.033 --> 07:53.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% up playing out next week on the shutdown dynamics, which are not anywhere close to where we are here. 07:53.300 --> 07:55.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. 07:55.466 --> 07:57.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALI VITALI: But I think that's the thing that I think is so striking here, is that Congress 07:57.900 --> 08:02.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% has at every turn seen controversial nominees who are loyal to the president, and, really, 08:02.466 --> 08:06.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that's their only qualification, and they have put aside their concerns to just go along with 08:06.800 --> 08:11.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the president. I knew, we all knew, that this Congress was going to look different because 08:11.333 --> 08:16.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it's been remade in the MAGA image, but Trump has benefited from that at every single turn. 08:18.700 --> 08:21.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% The only thing I think about here, two things. The first is when he talks about not having a role in 08:24.000 --> 08:27.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% these prosecutions, it takes me back to the day that they got a raid on John Bolton's house, 08:29.600 --> 08:31.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and Trump said, well, actually, I'm the chief law enforcement officer of this country, but, 08:31.766 --> 08:35.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% no, no, I had nothing to do with it, and Bondi and others will brief me when appropriate. Okay, 08:35.333 --> 08:39.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% so if he's the chief law enforcement officer of this country and he's saying the names, 08:39.600 --> 08:42.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Comey, Letitia James, all of these other people, let's take that into 08:42.633 --> 08:45.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a courtroom. And it's why legal experts actually think that there's a chance that 08:45.500 --> 08:49.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% this case could get thrown out before it even begins. I didn't go to law school. 08:49.233 --> 08:51.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Because it's prejudicing a case ahead of time? 08:51.466 --> 08:54.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% ALI VITALI: Because it's prejudicing a case ahead of time. And the idea of a vindictive 08:54.000 --> 08:58.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% or selective prosecution, which is typically something that's very hard to prove. And again, 08:58.633 --> 09:02.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I did not go to law school, but we talk to lawyers all the time. 09:02.866 --> 09:06.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Comey could have something there. And it's only exacerbated by the fact 09:06.533 --> 09:09.966 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% that the prosecutor now prosecuting this case actually has never done it before. 09:09.966 --> 09:12.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. By the way, thank you for playing a lawyer on T.V. 09:12.533 --> 09:13.800 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% ALI VITALI: I really try so hard. 09:13.800 --> 09:15.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: No, it was excellent. 09:15.233 --> 09:17.566 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% ALI VITALI: You brought the drama. 09:17.566 --> 09:19.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: No, it was excellent. Nancy had a little drama in her presentation too, I note. 09:19.366 --> 09:22.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But -- so, this is what's, that's interesting. And you really hit 09:22.866 --> 09:27.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% on something after Watergate -- this is our Watergate special, obviously. After Watergate, 09:29.800 --> 09:33.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% all kinds of protections were put in place around the Justice Department, almost like 09:35.466 --> 09:39.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% moats were dug and walls were built to protect the Justice Department from political interference. 09:41.266 --> 09:46.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So, the question is, do any of them remain today? 09:47.766 --> 09:50.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% KAREN TUMULTY: When you have the president of the United States 09:50.866 --> 09:55.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% publicly telling the attorney general who to prosecute, I think the answer is no. 10:00.533 --> 10:05.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Is there anything in the building itself? Can they 10:07.000 --> 10:09.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% do anything other than quit and protest? Is there any -- 10:09.333 --> 10:11.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% KAREN TUMULTY: And which they have been doing. 10:11.233 --> 10:13.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Nothing? 10:13.733 --> 10:17.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% STEPHEN HAYES: The careers have been quitting. But part of the challenge here is that Donald Trump 10:17.900 --> 10:22.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% has stocked the Justice Department with people who are loyal to him. I mean, last month, the chief of 10:25.266 --> 10:27.766 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% staff at the Justice Department gave an interview to Ruth Marcus, the New Yorker, and in fact said, 10:27.766 --> 10:32.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% there's no difference between serving the chief executive and Donald Trump. We're working for him. 10:34.800 --> 10:38.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And it's just such a departure from the way that people have approached the job for one thing, 10:40.566 --> 10:44.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but certainly talked about it for another. And that, again, is unprecedented. 10:44.166 --> 10:49.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I need your expertise as a shrink here for a minute, not for me, by the way, 10:49.133 --> 10:54.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but for constituency that you understand, the conservative voting constituency that 10:56.233 --> 10:59.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you've covered for a long time. Why is there such acquiescence to the destruction of a not 11:06.800 --> 11:11.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% obscure norm? This is not -- we're not talking as a highly technical USDA rules that are changing 11:14.133 --> 11:19.133 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% slightly from administration to administration. We're talking about the defense of the idea that 11:21.300 --> 11:24.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% justice is blind and that the people who have the ability to change people's lives forever, 11:25.866 --> 11:29.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% their indictment, prosecution, conviction, and imprisonment, 11:33.200 --> 11:37.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% have no connection to the dispassion and impartiality that we've always held up 11:37.900 --> 11:42.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% to the rest of the world as a gift, as a symbol of our American advancement. 11:44.966 --> 11:48.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% STEPHEN HAYES: Well, I said that the way that they talk about it is unprecedented. 11:48.966 --> 11:53.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I said it that way for a reason. I do think there is precedent for these kinds of 11:53.066 --> 11:57.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% political prosecutions and targeting of political opponents. Robert F. Kennedy, 11:57.466 --> 12:02.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% John F. Kennedy went after radio -- used the IRS and the FCC to go after the rising Radio Right, 12:04.133 --> 12:07.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% which is what historian Paul Matzko calls these people. It was sort of 12:07.666 --> 12:12.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the precursor to talk radio. And they said in an Oval Office conversation, in effect, 12:12.400 --> 12:16.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% go get them. Use the government to go get them. We saw during Barack Obama's administration, 12:16.700 --> 12:21.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the IRS targeting conservative groups. You'd hear from a MAGA people that Joe Biden went after 12:23.766 --> 12:28.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Donald Trump previously. I don't there are -- I'd say, supporting evidence is weak in that regard. 12:30.500 --> 12:34.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% But I would -- I think the prosecution in New York was a stretch, a lot of people who weren't -- 12:34.200 --> 12:35.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: The prosecution for Donald Trump, the one that led to the 34 convictions. 12:35.900 --> 12:38.066 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% STEPHEN HAYES: That led to the 34. 12:38.066 --> 12:42.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, what you'll hear from MAGA voters is this is the way that Washington always works. 12:44.333 --> 12:46.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% You're so naive that you're so precious that you think this is new and different. This 12:46.533 --> 12:48.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% is the way that it always works, and it's about time that we're getting -- 12:48.966 --> 12:51.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: All right. What is your answer to them? 12:51.000 --> 12:54.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% STEPHEN HAYES: It's not. It's not new and different. I mean, to a certain extent, 12:54.733 --> 12:58.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% you know, it's like the, you know, shock to find that they're gambling here. 12:58.733 --> 13:02.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Of course, people use the levers of government to go after their political enemies for the 13:02.800 --> 13:07.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% reasons I just suggested. What I think makes this different is that he's so bold and aggressive and 13:10.166 --> 13:13.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% unapologetic about it. He's just announcing it in public, I'm going after these people. He will say, 13:15.400 --> 13:18.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I campaigned on going after these people. He's got a list. Kash Patel, the director of the FBI, 13:20.333 --> 13:23.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% literally published a list of 60-some odd people that they were going to go after 13:25.533 --> 13:27.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% if they took power. And now it appears that that's exactly what they're doing. 13:27.633 --> 13:31.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALI VITALI: Because when I talk with MAGA voters, they all have a list of people. Okay, 13:31.033 --> 13:34.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but what about Michael Cohen? I mean, even just on the lying to Congress charge, right, 13:34.066 --> 13:39.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% you've got Michael Cohen as a prime example of that. There were others who they went after on 13:41.033 --> 13:44.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% these similar kinds of charges. The central difference though, is that, in many cases, 13:44.066 --> 13:48.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% those charges were paired with something else, something more grave. The other piece of this, 13:48.133 --> 13:52.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% though, is that President Biden and other presidents were not out there saying, 13:52.300 --> 13:56.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% this is the list of people and addressing Merrick, colon, 13:56.666 --> 14:01.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and giving a public statement about it. Merrick Garland, too much criticism, tried to stay as 14:03.666 --> 14:05.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% far away from the politics as if it wasn't inextricably linked with his job as attorney 14:05.900 --> 14:10.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% general at that point, as he possibly could. But all illusion of that is absolutely gone. 14:12.366 --> 14:14.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. And so the expectation -- so go ahead. 14:14.333 --> 14:18.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KAREN TUMULTY: But the other argument they make is that Trump was so persecuted, 14:19.933 --> 14:23.300 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% you know, that he was indicted multiple times. He was impeached twice. And, 14:25.033 --> 14:28.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% essentially, they see this is payback time. 14:28.400 --> 14:30.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I know, but what's so interesting about that is let's 14:30.633 --> 14:35.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% take just one of the Trump cases that's no longer relevant, legally relevant, 14:37.800 --> 14:41.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% but the sequestering of classified documents in Mar-a-Lago. That's not a weak case from 14:43.600 --> 14:48.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% what we can tell. That's a very strong case. So, yes, I mean, you know this as a national 14:48.400 --> 14:53.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% security correspondent very well, and that's - - you know, there's a persecution complex. 14:55.266 --> 14:59.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% But many of the charges have -- many of the former charges have salience, no? 15:02.000 --> 15:05.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% KAREN TUMULTY: Well, not so much anymore, 15:05.100 --> 15:07.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% especially since the Supreme Court has ruled that -- 15:07.266 --> 15:11.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Salience in terms of their truth, not in terms of their legal relevance. 15:11.166 --> 15:16.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KAREN TUMULTY: Right. And -- but, again, I mean, it was very much a part of the image 15:18.266 --> 15:22.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that Trump projected while he was running for reelection, was that he has been persecuted. 15:25.000 --> 15:29.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Let me talk about another enemy on Trump's list, Jimmy Kimmel. You never would've 15:31.433 --> 15:35.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% put James Comey and Jimmy Kimmel in the same bucket, but Kimmel's back on T.V. this week 15:37.500 --> 15:41.133 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and Defiant. And this seems to be a case in which maybe the Trump administration overreached a bit. 15:43.133 --> 15:46.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I just want you to listen to what Senator John Thune, who hasn't said much about 15:48.500 --> 15:52.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the hollowing out of the Justice Department, but listen to what he said about the First Amendment. 15:54.566 --> 15:58.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Oh, yes, no, I'm sorry. We're going to -- I'm just going to read this to you. My -- this is 15:58.400 --> 16:03.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% what he said. My view is when it comes to the FCC, when it comes to governing authorities 16:05.733 --> 16:08.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and governmental power, it shouldn't be used in a coercive way when it comes to the First Amendment. 16:09.866 --> 16:14.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So, what's going on here? Did Brendan Carr go too far, 16:14.066 --> 16:19.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Brendan Carr being the chairman of the FCC, who, on a podcast, sounded very tough guy? 16:20.833 --> 16:22.366 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% NANCY YOUSSEF: We can do this the easy way or we can do this the hard way. 16:22.366 --> 16:24.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes, he did a tough guy thing. Yes. 16:24.433 --> 16:27.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% NANCY YOUSSEF: Well, look, it's funny that Stephen Colbert and Jimmy Kimmel were sort 16:27.100 --> 16:31.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% of canaries in the coal mine about threats to the First Amendment. And I think in this case, 16:31.900 --> 16:36.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% because of what he cited and the sort of ambiguity in terms of what about it demanded taking him off 16:39.200 --> 16:44.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the air, something so present in everybody's house, you can watch Jimmy Kimmel any time, 16:46.233 --> 16:49.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I think made it something both palatable in terms of what people could understand. 16:49.433 --> 16:54.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And also it was all out in the open. He said that they should face repercussions for it. 16:56.500 --> 16:59.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I think a lot of people in the American public saw this as an attack on the First 16:59.266 --> 17:03.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Amendment. And so they could speak up in a way that actually had financial impact. They 17:03.333 --> 17:08.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% could cancel their Hulu membership, they could cancel their Disney membership to sort of force 17:10.233 --> 17:13.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a change of events. And I think so the totality of it, it's somebody they know, 17:13.266 --> 17:17.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it had financial repercussions. And you had Brendan Carr really tying the future 17:17.666 --> 17:22.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of that show to the Disney company taking specific action, I think made it all sort of, 17:24.533 --> 17:28.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% come to the American public's awareness in a way that other cases might not. 17:29.566 --> 17:32.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Steve, Brendan Carr on his back foot? 17:32.200 --> 17:35.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% STEPHEN HAYES: It's hard to tell, honestly. I mean, you had criticism, 17:35.033 --> 17:39.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% like you just read from John Thune. You had Ted Cruz comparing him to Mafioso. 17:41.200 --> 17:43.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% So, that was pretty bold and aggressive from people who aren't typically bold 17:43.666 --> 17:47.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and aggressive in their criticism from of Donald Trump and his administration. 17:47.733 --> 17:52.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% But once Donald Trump came out, remember Donald Trump -- initially, the MAGA explanation was, oh, 17:55.033 --> 17:58.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% he's not really threatening them. This isn't what it seems. And then Donald Trump came out and said, 17:58.300 --> 18:03.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% this is exactly what we're doing, this is exactly what it seems. And after Donald Trump spoke again, 18:05.433 --> 18:09.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the criticism of the administration from Republicans went silent. They didn't continue to 18:09.333 --> 18:14.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% criticize. And it's an interesting, sort of moment that they withheld their judgment after that. 18:15.700 --> 18:17.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. 18:17.600 --> 18:19.766 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% KAREN TUMULTY: And it was a bit of a bank shot because the -- where the FCC 18:19.766 --> 18:24.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% has its leverage is not against the networks directly. It's against the local affiliates. 18:25.300 --> 18:27.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. 18:27.433 --> 18:30.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% KAREN TUMULTY: So, while Jimmy Kimmel came back on the air this week, we saw that two 18:30.800 --> 18:35.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of the big affiliate companies, Nexstar and Sinclair, didn't put him back. Now they will.