1 00:00:02,066 --> 00:00:04,233 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We have a lot to talk about tonight, starting with the indictment of James 2 00:00:04,233 --> 00:00:08,266 Comey and the wholesale takeover of the Justice Department by the Trump political apparatus. But 3 00:00:10,033 --> 00:00:12,033 we'll also talk about his pursuit of another foe, the late night comedian, 4 00:00:12,033 --> 00:00:16,666 Jimmy Kimmel. We'll talk about Trump's views on Tylenol and Ukraine and much more. 5 00:00:18,533 --> 00:00:22,066 Joining me tonight at the table, Stephen Hayes, the editor of the Dispatch, 6 00:00:22,066 --> 00:00:26,133 Karen Tumulty is the chief political correspondent at The Washington Post, 7 00:00:26,133 --> 00:00:31,133 Ali Vitali is the host of Way Too Early and the chief Congressional correspondent for the network 8 00:00:33,466 --> 00:00:36,733 currently known as MSNBC, and Nancy Youssef is a national security correspondent at The Atlantic. 9 00:00:38,266 --> 00:00:40,766 I'm sorry, I just have to make the MSNBC's joke every time. 10 00:00:40,766 --> 00:00:42,166 ALI VITALI, Host, MSNBC's Way Too Early: Look, if you have to do it -- 11 00:00:42,166 --> 00:00:43,566 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I got to do it. I got to do it. 12 00:00:43,566 --> 00:00:45,000 ALI VITALI: Her name is what it is for right now. 13 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,000 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It's like clear for me. I'm sorry. 14 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:51,866 The -- Karen, let's start with you. Give us the latest on the Comey indictment, 15 00:00:53,466 --> 00:00:58,433 and more importantly what does it mean for democracy? 16 00:01:00,733 --> 00:01:03,266 KAREN TUMULTY, Chief Political Correspondent, The Washington Post: Well, we saw a real rapid fire 17 00:01:03,266 --> 00:01:08,266 series of events this week. Trump's own appointed U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia 18 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:18,600 essentially refused to do this indictment after the president specifically called for it. So, 19 00:01:22,533 --> 00:01:27,533 he was removed. A new acting U.S. attorney, Lindsey Halligan, was put in. 20 00:01:30,133 --> 00:01:32,100 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. 21 00:01:32,100 --> 00:01:35,633 KAREN TUMULTY: This is a woman who had been part of Trump's personal legal team, 22 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:42,600 had been a White House aide whose mission had been removing what the administration 23 00:01:45,633 --> 00:01:50,600 deemed to be improper ideology of the Smithsonian. But she has -- 24 00:01:52,500 --> 00:01:54,733 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: She was going to be the woke inspector of this Smithsonian. 25 00:01:54,733 --> 00:01:57,733 KAREN TUMULTY: She was. She was. But now she finds herself as the acting U.S. attorney in 26 00:02:00,100 --> 00:02:03,633 Virginia who carried this indictment out. It's all of a page and a half. It's a very quick read. 27 00:02:07,033 --> 00:02:12,033 The charges against James Comey are among allegedly lying to Congress. These are 28 00:02:15,100 --> 00:02:20,100 charges that are very rarely prosecuted unless they are, you know, connected to other charges. 29 00:02:24,100 --> 00:02:26,000 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. 30 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,166 KAREN TUMULTY: And potentially could, you know, put him in prison for ten years. 31 00:02:29,166 --> 00:02:33,333 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. I wanted you to all to listen to Ty Cobb, the president's former 32 00:02:33,333 --> 00:02:38,333 attorney who has become a critic. Listen to what he had to say about the meaning here. 33 00:02:40,533 --> 00:02:43,500 TY COBB, Former Trump White House Attorney: I don't think this can be reported as, you know, 34 00:02:43,500 --> 00:02:48,500 one or two degrees of standard deviation from the norm. This is a wholesale 180 from the norms 35 00:02:50,900 --> 00:02:54,833 of what made America different from third world dictatorships, authoritarian regimes and tyranny. 36 00:02:59,833 --> 00:03:02,666 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Steve, understatement, overstatement, correct? 37 00:03:02,666 --> 00:03:05,333 STEPHEN HAYES, Editor, The Dispatch: No. I think he's basically got it right. I mean, 38 00:03:05,333 --> 00:03:10,333 the troubling thing -- the indictment itself, we will learn more about the case. We'll learn what 39 00:03:12,533 --> 00:03:15,100 they're going to argue in the coming days and weeks, but I think it's the stuff that preceded 40 00:03:15,100 --> 00:03:19,200 the indictment that is the most troubling. It's the fact pattern that Karen laid out. 41 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,666 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: The firing of the previous -- 42 00:03:22,666 --> 00:03:25,433 STEPHEN HAYES: The firings of previous prosecutors, the reporting widespread credible, 43 00:03:25,433 --> 00:03:29,833 I believe, that all of these prosecutors didn't think there was enough to bring a case, 44 00:03:32,033 --> 00:03:35,466 the sort of the sequence of events that led up to this moment, and in particular Donald Trump 45 00:03:37,500 --> 00:03:41,000 tweeting at his attorney general to go get this guy because I don't like him, in effect. 46 00:03:41,766 --> 00:03:43,666 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes. 47 00:03:43,666 --> 00:03:45,833 STEPHEN HAYES: That is new. We don't see that very often. And it's not new 48 00:03:45,833 --> 00:03:50,833 for Donald Trump because he campaigned on retribution. He told us, he told voters, 49 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,833 this is what I'm going to do. These are the people I don't like. I'm going to get them back. 50 00:03:55,833 --> 00:03:58,000 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes. 51 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,633 STEPHEN HAYES: But seeing him do it in this manner is so unlike the kinds of things that 52 00:04:00,633 --> 00:04:05,500 we've seen before, and I think that is in part what's alarming. And it should be said, 53 00:04:05,500 --> 00:04:10,266 this is the first. I mean, nobody thinks this ends with James Comey. He's got a long list. 54 00:04:10,266 --> 00:04:13,533 KAREN TUMULTY: In fact, Trump today said it will not end with James. 55 00:04:13,533 --> 00:04:15,533 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes. STEPHEN HAYES: Yes. 56 00:04:15,533 --> 00:04:17,700 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want to -- I think this is a good opportunity for me to do my dramatic 57 00:04:17,700 --> 00:04:21,533 reading of the Pam Bondi Truth Social. I'll try to limit the drama, but you'll get the 58 00:04:23,666 --> 00:04:27,233 point. This is one of the most extraordinary statements Donald Trump has ever made, I think. 59 00:04:29,900 --> 00:04:34,900 Pam -- it's almost as if it was a direct message to her that got out. Pam, I have reviewed over 60 00:04:38,066 --> 00:04:43,033 30 statements in posts saying that essentially, open quote, same old story as last time, all talk, 61 00:04:43,033 --> 00:04:48,033 no action. Nothing is being done. What about Comey, Adam Shifty Schiff, a U.S. Senator, 62 00:04:50,133 --> 00:04:52,166 by the way, Letitia, question mark, question mark, question mark, question, that's the 63 00:04:52,166 --> 00:04:56,866 prosecutor -- the state attorney general in New York. They're all guilty as hell, 64 00:04:56,866 --> 00:05:01,200 but nothing is going to be done. Then we almost put in a Democrat-supported U.S. attorney in 65 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:05,833 Virginia with a really bad Republican past, a woke RINO who is never going to do his job. 66 00:05:05,833 --> 00:05:10,833 And then he goes on, Lindsey Halligan is a really good lawyer and likes you 67 00:05:12,733 --> 00:05:14,633 a lot. We can't delay any longer. It's killing our reputation and credibility. 68 00:05:14,633 --> 00:05:18,633 They impeached me twice and indicted me five times, exclamation point, 69 00:05:18,633 --> 00:05:23,633 and then all caps, over nothing. Justice must be served now. President DJT. 70 00:05:25,700 --> 00:05:30,266 So, I don't know what this actually compares to in American history. It's as if almost as 71 00:05:32,500 --> 00:05:35,100 if President Nixon, all analogies are imperfect, this one will be imperfect, but it's President 72 00:05:35,100 --> 00:05:40,100 Nixon went into the press room and said, the Democratic National Committee is my enemy, 73 00:05:42,166 --> 00:05:45,300 and so I really think that the FBI needs to go right now and get all their documents 74 00:05:47,366 --> 00:05:50,333 at the Watergate and then give them to me so that we can manufacture a case against them. 75 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,200 I mean, it's as if Watergate is in a -- the entirety of Watergate is in a Truth Social 76 00:05:58,433 --> 00:06:02,866 post. I mean, maybe I'm exaggerating, but it doesn't seem like much of an exaggeration, Nancy. 77 00:06:02,866 --> 00:06:05,266 NANCY YOUSSEF, Staff Writer, The Atlantic: Well, and then on the Saturday Massacre, 78 00:06:05,266 --> 00:06:10,266 right, when you see the firing -- the attempted firing of Archibald Cox and 79 00:06:12,100 --> 00:06:13,633 that the Attorney General wouldn't do it and the deputy wouldn't do it, 80 00:06:13,633 --> 00:06:14,833 and the solicitor general ends up doing it, Robert Bork. 81 00:06:14,833 --> 00:06:17,333 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Robert Bork, yes. 82 00:06:17,333 --> 00:06:20,366 NANCY YOUSSEF: But the difference would then was that led to the impeachment. That led to people -- 83 00:06:20,366 --> 00:06:22,533 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That caused the impeachment. 84 00:06:22,533 --> 00:06:25,200 NANCY YOUSSSEF: That's right. Whereas in this case, we're not hearing Congress say we're going 85 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:30,200 to look into this, even as you note, the president has listed people who will be charged next, 86 00:06:32,100 --> 00:06:35,100 Senator Schiff with Letitia James among others. And so I think that's the real 87 00:06:35,100 --> 00:06:38,866 deviation that's happening here is that this is not leading to consequence, 88 00:06:38,866 --> 00:06:43,866 but actually appears to be sort of condoned in some ways, but with the absence of any action. 89 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:50,066 And I should note, when Archibald Cox is brought forward, he says whether our shall continue to be 90 00:06:50,066 --> 00:06:55,066 a government of laws and not of men now for Congress and ultimately the American people 91 00:06:57,266 --> 00:06:59,500 to decide, we're at this inflection point again potentially with a different answer. 92 00:06:59,500 --> 00:07:04,500 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. We're -- that was the inflection point that led to the re-deviation 93 00:07:06,633 --> 00:07:10,100 or deviation back to the norm. But you cover Congress. You're talking to these people all 94 00:07:12,433 --> 00:07:16,200 the time. Again, I'm trying to sound rational and logical and reasoned, but this is unprecedented. 95 00:07:22,133 --> 00:07:27,133 And in ordinary times, this would provoke a seismic reaction on the part of a coequal 96 00:07:30,866 --> 00:07:35,866 branch of government that is supposed to monitor the other branches of government. 97 00:07:38,133 --> 00:07:40,500 ALI VITALI: And has not really had much of an appetite to do so, whether it be through oversight 98 00:07:40,500 --> 00:07:45,400 or even just the simple appropriation of funds, which is literally Congress's constitutional job. 99 00:07:46,133 --> 00:07:48,566 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. 100 00:07:48,566 --> 00:07:51,033 ALI VITALI: They've seemed to really be willing to farm that out. And we'll watch how that ends 101 00:07:51,033 --> 00:07:53,300 up playing out next week on the shutdown dynamics, which are not anywhere close to where we are here. 102 00:07:53,300 --> 00:07:55,466 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. 103 00:07:55,466 --> 00:07:57,900 ALI VITALI: But I think that's the thing that I think is so striking here, is that Congress 104 00:07:57,900 --> 00:08:02,466 has at every turn seen controversial nominees who are loyal to the president, and, really, 105 00:08:02,466 --> 00:08:06,800 that's their only qualification, and they have put aside their concerns to just go along with 106 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:11,333 the president. I knew, we all knew, that this Congress was going to look different because 107 00:08:11,333 --> 00:08:16,333 it's been remade in the MAGA image, but Trump has benefited from that at every single turn. 108 00:08:18,700 --> 00:08:21,866 The only thing I think about here, two things. The first is when he talks about not having a role in 109 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,466 these prosecutions, it takes me back to the day that they got a raid on John Bolton's house, 110 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:31,766 and Trump said, well, actually, I'm the chief law enforcement officer of this country, but, 111 00:08:31,766 --> 00:08:35,333 no, no, I had nothing to do with it, and Bondi and others will brief me when appropriate. Okay, 112 00:08:35,333 --> 00:08:39,600 so if he's the chief law enforcement officer of this country and he's saying the names, 113 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,633 Comey, Letitia James, all of these other people, let's take that into 114 00:08:42,633 --> 00:08:45,500 a courtroom. And it's why legal experts actually think that there's a chance that 115 00:08:45,500 --> 00:08:49,233 this case could get thrown out before it even begins. I didn't go to law school. 116 00:08:49,233 --> 00:08:51,466 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Because it's prejudicing a case ahead of time? 117 00:08:51,466 --> 00:08:54,000 ALI VITALI: Because it's prejudicing a case ahead of time. And the idea of a vindictive 118 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,633 or selective prosecution, which is typically something that's very hard to prove. And again, 119 00:08:58,633 --> 00:09:02,866 I did not go to law school, but we talk to lawyers all the time. 120 00:09:02,866 --> 00:09:06,533 Comey could have something there. And it's only exacerbated by the fact 121 00:09:06,533 --> 00:09:09,966 that the prosecutor now prosecuting this case actually has never done it before. 122 00:09:09,966 --> 00:09:12,533 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. By the way, thank you for playing a lawyer on T.V. 123 00:09:12,533 --> 00:09:13,800 ALI VITALI: I really try so hard. 124 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:15,233 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: No, it was excellent. 125 00:09:15,233 --> 00:09:17,566 ALI VITALI: You brought the drama. 126 00:09:17,566 --> 00:09:19,366 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: No, it was excellent. Nancy had a little drama in her presentation too, I note. 127 00:09:19,366 --> 00:09:22,866 But -- so, this is what's, that's interesting. And you really hit 128 00:09:22,866 --> 00:09:27,866 on something after Watergate -- this is our Watergate special, obviously. After Watergate, 129 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,233 all kinds of protections were put in place around the Justice Department, almost like 130 00:09:35,466 --> 00:09:39,700 moats were dug and walls were built to protect the Justice Department from political interference. 131 00:09:41,266 --> 00:09:46,266 So, the question is, do any of them remain today? 132 00:09:47,766 --> 00:09:50,866 KAREN TUMULTY: When you have the president of the United States 133 00:09:50,866 --> 00:09:55,866 publicly telling the attorney general who to prosecute, I think the answer is no. 134 00:10:00,533 --> 00:10:05,533 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Is there anything in the building itself? Can they 135 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,333 do anything other than quit and protest? Is there any -- 136 00:10:09,333 --> 00:10:11,233 KAREN TUMULTY: And which they have been doing. 137 00:10:11,233 --> 00:10:13,733 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Nothing? 138 00:10:13,733 --> 00:10:17,900 STEPHEN HAYES: The careers have been quitting. But part of the challenge here is that Donald Trump 139 00:10:17,900 --> 00:10:22,900 has stocked the Justice Department with people who are loyal to him. I mean, last month, the chief of 140 00:10:25,266 --> 00:10:27,766 staff at the Justice Department gave an interview to Ruth Marcus, the New Yorker, and in fact said, 141 00:10:27,766 --> 00:10:32,433 there's no difference between serving the chief executive and Donald Trump. We're working for him. 142 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,666 And it's just such a departure from the way that people have approached the job for one thing, 143 00:10:40,566 --> 00:10:44,166 but certainly talked about it for another. And that, again, is unprecedented. 144 00:10:44,166 --> 00:10:49,133 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I need your expertise as a shrink here for a minute, not for me, by the way, 145 00:10:49,133 --> 00:10:54,100 but for constituency that you understand, the conservative voting constituency that 146 00:10:56,233 --> 00:10:59,866 you've covered for a long time. Why is there such acquiescence to the destruction of a not 147 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:11,800 obscure norm? This is not -- we're not talking as a highly technical USDA rules that are changing 148 00:11:14,133 --> 00:11:19,133 slightly from administration to administration. We're talking about the defense of the idea that 149 00:11:21,300 --> 00:11:24,333 justice is blind and that the people who have the ability to change people's lives forever, 150 00:11:25,866 --> 00:11:29,433 their indictment, prosecution, conviction, and imprisonment, 151 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:37,900 have no connection to the dispassion and impartiality that we've always held up 152 00:11:37,900 --> 00:11:42,900 to the rest of the world as a gift, as a symbol of our American advancement. 153 00:11:44,966 --> 00:11:48,966 STEPHEN HAYES: Well, I said that the way that they talk about it is unprecedented. 154 00:11:48,966 --> 00:11:53,066 And I said it that way for a reason. I do think there is precedent for these kinds of 155 00:11:53,066 --> 00:11:57,466 political prosecutions and targeting of political opponents. Robert F. Kennedy, 156 00:11:57,466 --> 00:12:02,433 John F. Kennedy went after radio -- used the IRS and the FCC to go after the rising Radio Right, 157 00:12:04,133 --> 00:12:07,666 which is what historian Paul Matzko calls these people. It was sort of 158 00:12:07,666 --> 00:12:12,400 the precursor to talk radio. And they said in an Oval Office conversation, in effect, 159 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,700 go get them. Use the government to go get them. We saw during Barack Obama's administration, 160 00:12:16,700 --> 00:12:21,700 the IRS targeting conservative groups. You'd hear from a MAGA people that Joe Biden went after 161 00:12:23,766 --> 00:12:28,200 Donald Trump previously. I don't there are -- I'd say, supporting evidence is weak in that regard. 162 00:12:30,500 --> 00:12:34,200 But I would -- I think the prosecution in New York was a stretch, a lot of people who weren't -- 163 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:35,900 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: The prosecution for Donald Trump, the one that led to the 34 convictions. 164 00:12:35,900 --> 00:12:38,066 STEPHEN HAYES: That led to the 34. 165 00:12:38,066 --> 00:12:42,266 So, what you'll hear from MAGA voters is this is the way that Washington always works. 166 00:12:44,333 --> 00:12:46,533 You're so naive that you're so precious that you think this is new and different. This 167 00:12:46,533 --> 00:12:48,966 is the way that it always works, and it's about time that we're getting -- 168 00:12:48,966 --> 00:12:51,000 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: All right. What is your answer to them? 169 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,733 STEPHEN HAYES: It's not. It's not new and different. I mean, to a certain extent, 170 00:12:54,733 --> 00:12:58,733 you know, it's like the, you know, shock to find that they're gambling here. 171 00:12:58,733 --> 00:13:02,800 Of course, people use the levers of government to go after their political enemies for the 172 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:07,800 reasons I just suggested. What I think makes this different is that he's so bold and aggressive and 173 00:13:10,166 --> 00:13:13,233 unapologetic about it. He's just announcing it in public, I'm going after these people. He will say, 174 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,333 I campaigned on going after these people. He's got a list. Kash Patel, the director of the FBI, 175 00:13:20,333 --> 00:13:23,633 literally published a list of 60-some odd people that they were going to go after 176 00:13:25,533 --> 00:13:27,633 if they took power. And now it appears that that's exactly what they're doing. 177 00:13:27,633 --> 00:13:31,033 ALI VITALI: Because when I talk with MAGA voters, they all have a list of people. Okay, 178 00:13:31,033 --> 00:13:34,066 but what about Michael Cohen? I mean, even just on the lying to Congress charge, right, 179 00:13:34,066 --> 00:13:39,066 you've got Michael Cohen as a prime example of that. There were others who they went after on 180 00:13:41,033 --> 00:13:44,066 these similar kinds of charges. The central difference though, is that, in many cases, 181 00:13:44,066 --> 00:13:48,133 those charges were paired with something else, something more grave. The other piece of this, 182 00:13:48,133 --> 00:13:52,300 though, is that President Biden and other presidents were not out there saying, 183 00:13:52,300 --> 00:13:56,666 this is the list of people and addressing Merrick, colon, 184 00:13:56,666 --> 00:14:01,633 and giving a public statement about it. Merrick Garland, too much criticism, tried to stay as 185 00:14:03,666 --> 00:14:05,900 far away from the politics as if it wasn't inextricably linked with his job as attorney 186 00:14:05,900 --> 00:14:10,900 general at that point, as he possibly could. But all illusion of that is absolutely gone. 187 00:14:12,366 --> 00:14:14,333 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. And so the expectation -- so go ahead. 188 00:14:14,333 --> 00:14:18,000 KAREN TUMULTY: But the other argument they make is that Trump was so persecuted, 189 00:14:19,933 --> 00:14:23,300 you know, that he was indicted multiple times. He was impeached twice. And, 190 00:14:25,033 --> 00:14:28,400 essentially, they see this is payback time. 191 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,633 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I know, but what's so interesting about that is let's 192 00:14:30,633 --> 00:14:35,633 take just one of the Trump cases that's no longer relevant, legally relevant, 193 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,400 but the sequestering of classified documents in Mar-a-Lago. That's not a weak case from 194 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:48,400 what we can tell. That's a very strong case. So, yes, I mean, you know this as a national 195 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:53,400 security correspondent very well, and that's - - you know, there's a persecution complex. 196 00:14:55,266 --> 00:14:59,700 But many of the charges have -- many of the former charges have salience, no? 197 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,100 KAREN TUMULTY: Well, not so much anymore, 198 00:15:05,100 --> 00:15:07,266 especially since the Supreme Court has ruled that -- 199 00:15:07,266 --> 00:15:11,166 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Salience in terms of their truth, not in terms of their legal relevance. 200 00:15:11,166 --> 00:15:16,166 KAREN TUMULTY: Right. And -- but, again, I mean, it was very much a part of the image 201 00:15:18,266 --> 00:15:22,733 that Trump projected while he was running for reelection, was that he has been persecuted. 202 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,366 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Let me talk about another enemy on Trump's list, Jimmy Kimmel. You never would've 203 00:15:31,433 --> 00:15:35,133 put James Comey and Jimmy Kimmel in the same bucket, but Kimmel's back on T.V. this week 204 00:15:37,500 --> 00:15:41,133 and Defiant. And this seems to be a case in which maybe the Trump administration overreached a bit. 205 00:15:43,133 --> 00:15:46,233 I just want you to listen to what Senator John Thune, who hasn't said much about 206 00:15:48,500 --> 00:15:52,433 the hollowing out of the Justice Department, but listen to what he said about the First Amendment. 207 00:15:54,566 --> 00:15:58,400 Oh, yes, no, I'm sorry. We're going to -- I'm just going to read this to you. My -- this is 208 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:03,400 what he said. My view is when it comes to the FCC, when it comes to governing authorities 209 00:16:05,733 --> 00:16:08,433 and governmental power, it shouldn't be used in a coercive way when it comes to the First Amendment. 210 00:16:09,866 --> 00:16:14,066 So, what's going on here? Did Brendan Carr go too far, 211 00:16:14,066 --> 00:16:19,066 Brendan Carr being the chairman of the FCC, who, on a podcast, sounded very tough guy? 212 00:16:20,833 --> 00:16:22,366 NANCY YOUSSEF: We can do this the easy way or we can do this the hard way. 213 00:16:22,366 --> 00:16:24,433 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes, he did a tough guy thing. Yes. 214 00:16:24,433 --> 00:16:27,100 NANCY YOUSSEF: Well, look, it's funny that Stephen Colbert and Jimmy Kimmel were sort 215 00:16:27,100 --> 00:16:31,900 of canaries in the coal mine about threats to the First Amendment. And I think in this case, 216 00:16:31,900 --> 00:16:36,900 because of what he cited and the sort of ambiguity in terms of what about it demanded taking him off 217 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:44,200 the air, something so present in everybody's house, you can watch Jimmy Kimmel any time, 218 00:16:46,233 --> 00:16:49,433 I think made it something both palatable in terms of what people could understand. 219 00:16:49,433 --> 00:16:54,433 And also it was all out in the open. He said that they should face repercussions for it. 220 00:16:56,500 --> 00:16:59,266 And I think a lot of people in the American public saw this as an attack on the First 221 00:16:59,266 --> 00:17:03,333 Amendment. And so they could speak up in a way that actually had financial impact. They 222 00:17:03,333 --> 00:17:08,333 could cancel their Hulu membership, they could cancel their Disney membership to sort of force 223 00:17:10,233 --> 00:17:13,266 a change of events. And I think so the totality of it, it's somebody they know, 224 00:17:13,266 --> 00:17:17,666 it had financial repercussions. And you had Brendan Carr really tying the future 225 00:17:17,666 --> 00:17:22,666 of that show to the Disney company taking specific action, I think made it all sort of, 226 00:17:24,533 --> 00:17:28,200 come to the American public's awareness in a way that other cases might not. 227 00:17:29,566 --> 00:17:32,200 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Steve, Brendan Carr on his back foot? 228 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,033 STEPHEN HAYES: It's hard to tell, honestly. I mean, you had criticism, 229 00:17:35,033 --> 00:17:39,333 like you just read from John Thune. You had Ted Cruz comparing him to Mafioso. 230 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,666 So, that was pretty bold and aggressive from people who aren't typically bold 231 00:17:43,666 --> 00:17:47,733 and aggressive in their criticism from of Donald Trump and his administration. 232 00:17:47,733 --> 00:17:52,733 But once Donald Trump came out, remember Donald Trump -- initially, the MAGA explanation was, oh, 233 00:17:55,033 --> 00:17:58,300 he's not really threatening them. This isn't what it seems. And then Donald Trump came out and said, 234 00:17:58,300 --> 00:18:03,300 this is exactly what we're doing, this is exactly what it seems. And after Donald Trump spoke again, 235 00:18:05,433 --> 00:18:09,333 the criticism of the administration from Republicans went silent. They didn't continue to 236 00:18:09,333 --> 00:18:14,333 criticize. And it's an interesting, sort of moment that they withheld their judgment after that. 237 00:18:15,700 --> 00:18:17,600 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. 238 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:19,766 KAREN TUMULTY: And it was a bit of a bank shot because the -- where the FCC 239 00:18:19,766 --> 00:18:24,200 has its leverage is not against the networks directly. It's against the local affiliates. 240 00:18:25,300 --> 00:18:27,433 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. 241 00:18:27,433 --> 00:18:30,800 KAREN TUMULTY: So, while Jimmy Kimmel came back on the air this week, we saw that two 242 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:35,800 of the big affiliate companies, Nexstar and Sinclair, didn't put him back. Now they will.