WEBVTT

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want to come
to '94 in a second, but stay on
something that you mentioned,

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and I want you to talk
about this for the young
people out there that there

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was this -- there were
these creatures who used
to roam Washington called
conservative Democrats

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and liberal Republicans.
And there were whole
factions of them. And
they might be responsible,

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in retrospect for functioning
democracy in a way that now
that they've disappeared,

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or largely disappeared,
you know, now we understand
how important they were

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to the functioning of
Washington or like this
creation of some kind of

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bipartisan consensus.
Talk about them and that,
and those extinct tribes.

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DAN BALZ: Well, you know,
in the Republican Party,
it was people like Jacob
Javits from New York or

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Matthias from Maryland. On
the Democratic side, it was
largely southern Democrats,

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you know, Russell from
Georgia and others. So,
that was one element of it.

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I think there was more
to it than that though,
that there was, again,

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I go back to this sense that
you played politics by a set of
rules and Congress was supposed

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to work in a particular way
and presidents worked with
Congresses in a particular way.

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In those days, committee
chairs were gigantic
figures. We don't think of

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that today in the same way
because so much has now been
consolidated in the hands of

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the speaker and the leaders
in Congress. But in those
days, there was action taken

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at the subcommittee level
that we had to cover.
When I was doing economic
policy, I would cover

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subcommittee meetings
about taxes. I would cover
committee meetings at the
Agriculture Committee.

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That work is still being
done, but it is not done
in broad publication.

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So, that's been a massive
shift in the way politics
works, but I think

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that it has led to a
dysfunctionality of
-- certainly of the
legislative branch. I mean,

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you can say, well, they
have done some things,
occasional bipartisan things,

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as they did during the
Biden administration. But
as a whole, you look at
that institution and you

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say it is a broken
institution. And that was
not the way we thought
about it in the 70s or 80s.

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Was it perfect? No. Were there
problems? Yes. Were there
scandals? Yes. But it was

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a different era of politics
and a different ethic,

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I think, that people who
were in politics brought
to their positions.

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Let's
talk about the early 90s leading
up to '94, the rise of Newt

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Gingrich, who presaged a
lot of what we see today
in Republican Parties.
Now, that it's not to say

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that. Democratic hearts
also didn't harden and
become more confrontational.
We saw that in the

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Robert Bork hearings. But talk
about Gingrich because he's a,
he's pretty singular figure of

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that period. And, you know,
it's interesting reading some
of your stories from the 90s,

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you quote Gingrich as
saying of the Democrats,
I clearly fascinate them.
I'm much more intense,

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much more persistent, much
more willing to take risks
to get it done. Since
they think it is their

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job to run the plantation,
it shocks them that I'm
actually willing to lead
the slave rebellion.

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I'm surprised going back
30 years at the modern
quality of that language
back then. Those were

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kind of statements that people
in Congress who were used
to, accustomed to exercising

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self-restraint, rhetorical
self-restraint, would
never say. Was he, in
your mind, a revolution?

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DAN BALZ: Yes, I think
that's right. I think
it's fair to say. I mean,

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when you look back on, you know,
the whole arc of that period,

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Gingrich is a dominant
figure and one of the most
influential figures of the time.

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG: By the way,
did he change politics more

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than the president he served
with or in opposition to
Bill Clinton, ultimately?

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DAN BALZ: Well, I think
they both changed politics
in different ways,

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but let's stick with
Gingrich for a minute.

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes.

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DAN BALZ: Yes. Gingrich
changed politics. Because what
Gingrich did was he brought,

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as I say, a confrontational
style and a flamboyance
and a willingness to attack

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his opponents in ways that
other politicians would've been
hesitant to do. He went after,

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you know, Jim Wright, the
speaker of the House, on
ethics issues. He used,

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if you will, flagrant language
to describe his opponents.
It's the kind of thing that

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now seems ordinary. You
know, we see it all the
time on social media. But
Gingrich was out there.

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And I think one of the
things that happened was
that the Republicans were
so beaten down in the

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House throughout that
long period. I mean,
we have to remember the
Democrats held the house for

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40 years until 1994. Republicans
finally became convinced that
the style of leadership typified

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by Bob Michael, who was
the House Republican
leader in that period,
was not going to get them

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anything other than cooperation
as a minority that would be
stepped on by the Democrats.

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Gingrich, when there was an
election for a new whip, and
I believe it was 1990 or '89,

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was surprisingly elected
the whip. And I think that
signaled to, you know,

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the broader world, there is a
sea change coming potentially.

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And Gingrich then consolidated
his power and was the
architect of the 1994 victory.

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. And
talk about the relationship
between Gingrich's rhetorical,

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stylistic innovations
and the rise of social
media, reality T.V.,

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all of the things that
have brought us to what
politics are today. I mean,

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you could actually -- would
Trump exist without Gingrich?

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DAN BALZ: Probably not.
But I think there were
other elements, you know,

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that contributed to Trump
as well. So, I don't think
it's simply a straight

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line from Gingrich to Trump.
But there's no question that
that had a lot to do with it.

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I don't know what's the
best way to talk about
it, but if you think about
the changes in technology

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over time, Gingrich seized on a
technology that had not existed
prior to kind of his rise,

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which is television cameras
in the House chamber on
C-Span. And what the Gingrich

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team did was they used this
thing called special orders,
which allows a house member

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to get up and speak for a
limited length of time about
any topic that they want to do.

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And usually this is, you
know, after or before regular
order. And Gingrich and

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his small band of rebels
used that to begin to spread
a message of, you know,

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Democrats are corrupt, this
institution is corrupt, et
cetera, et cetera. They were

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speaking to an empty chamber.
But if you were watching
it, you didn't know that.

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Tip O'Neill finally forced
C-Span to pan the chamber
every now and then to show.

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So, he used a technology.
You know, if you fast
forward now to social media,

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it is a different way
of targeting a message,
aiming at people,

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doing it in a way that is
designed to inflame the
debate, not to, you know,
ameliorate differences.

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So, you know, we've been going
through that for a long time and
watching the technology and so,

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you know, we go from, you know,
cameras in the House chamber
ultimately to the internet,

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disrupting everything and
democratizing information
to social media, which is,

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you know, in many ways,
a toxic environment.

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Do you think
democracy can survive this
constant flood of very personal,

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unrestrained attack and this
constant flood of information,

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true information and bad
information, that comes to
voters every hour of every day?

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DAN BALZ: Yes. I don't
know, Jeff. I don't know
whether it can survive in
the way we think it has

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been and should be. I
think it's under enormous
stress. And I don't think
that's just, you know,

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the current president
that we have in the White
House. I think it's a
broader problem. You know,

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this democracy is pretty
resilient, but as a lot
of people have said,
you know, it's not

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something that just
happens, that people have
to work at it and people
have to believe in it.

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So, I think people, not
just politicians, I think,
the public at large is
going to have to decide

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what kind of democracy we want
in this country, and how do we
assure that it is sustained.

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG: What
were the downsides of the
old way of doing things?

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DAN BALZ: probably that
it was too clubby, that
it was -- you know, that
these differences weren't

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ironed out in the ways
they necessarily needed to
be, that the debate wasn't
as robust sometimes as

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that it needed to be. But, you
know, I think that was part of
it. You know, it was insular,

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you know? But Washington I
think has always been fairly
insular. I mean, you know,

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we think of it as, you know, the
grand capital, but it's a small
community. It's a tribal city.

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG:
Right. And it's a bunch

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of people who are doing the
same work in a kind of way.

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DAN BALZ: Right.

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG: They
become their own guild
in a sort of way.

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DAN BALZ: Yes.

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Talk
about a little bit -- I
mean, you've met everyone,

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you've seen everything you've
traveled. I don't know what
your frequent flyer miles

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are. You've written millions
of words and I'm sure you've
accumulated millions of miles

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trying to understand
politics across America. Talk
about the people you were

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impressed with in American
politics. I'm sure there's
a long list, but --

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DAN BALZ: There -- yes. Yes.

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG: People who
fulfill their mission to be

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something larger than
their own self-interest.

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DAN BALZ: Yes. Well, you know,
I think I would start just in
terms of sheer effectiveness at

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the exercise of power with
Nancy Pelosi. You know,

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I think there's probably not
been a more effective speaker
of the House, certainly

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since I would say probably
Sam Rayburn, many, many
people, which predates
my arrival here. So,

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that goes back quite a ways.
But I think that I think
that she was very effective.

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I think, you know, in
a different way and a
different party, Bob
Dole, when he was a Senate

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leader, was also very
effective at understanding
the institution and knowing,
you know, how to try

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to get things done, and
an ability to legislate.
I mean, it's a lost art,
the ability to legislate,

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which today is really just,
you know, can you hold your own
party together if you have the

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majority to kind of push
something through. That was a
different era of legislating.

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But, you know, there are some
other people that I think have
been, I guess, I would say,

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laudable public servants.
You know, one person I
have covered for 40-plus
years is Leon Panetta.

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I first started covering
him when he was in the
House. He was the House
Budget Committee chairman.

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He was the director of OMB for
Clinton. He was then Clinton's
White House chief of staff. He

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left politics for a while,
started an institute at
the Cal State Monterey
Bay, where he and his wife

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continued to run, came back to
be the director of the CIA, then
became the secretary of defense.

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He has, to me, been laudable
for a couple of reasons. One,

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he is a very serious public
servant. He takes his role
seriously. At the same time,

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he has an ebullient
personality, an ability to
laugh, an ability to see

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the absurdity in moments
both, you know, serious and
not so serious. So, he's one.

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Dave Broder, who was my mentor
at the Post, a great political
reporter, instilled in me

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a recognition that you should
pay attention to what's going
on outside of Washington and you

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should pay attention to
governors. And so there
are some governors over
the years that I came

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to think were very good.
Roy Romer, the former
governor of Colorado, who
later went on after he

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left that to become the
superintendent of schools
in Los Angeles, for
example. Janet Napolitano,

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who was the governor of Arizona,
who came to Washington and was
the director of the Secretary

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of Homeland Security.
Tom Vilsack is another
among the Democrats,
two-term governor in Iowa,

12:57.766 --> 13:02.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
almost secretary of agriculture
for life, but a person who was
both a smart politician, I mean,

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and played the game of
politics effectively, but also
cared about public policy.

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On the Republican side,
I'd I would be remiss in
not naming John McCain. I

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think that's an obvious one.
And I think Mitt Romney,
when he became a senator,

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showed a kind of, you know,
a moral compass that I think
was needed at the time.

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.
Stipulating that you're for
your judiciousness and modeling

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self-restraint, who that you
met in the course of these 50
years really disappointed you,

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you thought, well, this is a
person who's not good for the
American democratic experiment?

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DAN BALZ: Yes. I --

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JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You're not
going to be judicious now that
I've said you're judicious.

13:47.900 --> 13:52.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70%
DAN BALZ: Yes. I may be
judicious here. I don't
want to go down that

13:54.833 --> 13:58.100 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70%
road. I will say that
there are people who I saw
coming up. And, you know,

14:01.433 --> 14:06.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
I've lived my life in four
year cycles with, you know, the
presidential campaign being,

14:08.166 --> 14:10.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70%
you know, the key year
coming up, getting ready
to run for president,

14:10.700 --> 14:15.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
who I thought this person is
going to be very effective.
Don't underestimate this person.

14:17.766 --> 14:21.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
I will name one person who
I underestimated initially.
Phil Graham, who I got to know

14:23.733 --> 14:28.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
when I was down in our Texas
Bureau for a time, who, back
in the Reagan administration,

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quit the Democratic Party
and ran for his House seat
and people thought, well,

14:34.300 --> 14:38.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
he'll not win as a Republican,
and he did. And I thought, do
not underestimate this guy.

14:38.000 --> 14:43.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
When he ran for president,
he got nowhere. He was
completely ill-equipped.
I've seen that over time.

14:46.000 --> 14:50.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
Those are the people I would
say -- I wouldn't necessarily
say he's disappointed democracy,

14:52.900 --> 14:56.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70%
but that was the kind of
thing where you think somebody
has certain capabilities and

14:56.133 --> 15:01.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
talents when they get in that
arena, which is a very tough
arena. They're not there.

15:02.933 --> 15:05.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70%
JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Let's
talk finally about where
we are right now. This is a

15:05.666 --> 15:10.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70%
president we have who is
unlike any other president,
I think, in the modern era,

15:10.400 --> 15:15.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
certainly. Maybe you have
to go back to Andrew Jackson
to understand this. What

15:15.033 --> 15:20.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
is the threat of this president?
But also is there any promise
here of something? I mean,

15:22.200 --> 15:25.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
again, appealing to
your judiciousness and
logical analysis, what
is the danger here

15:28.633 --> 15:33.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
and is there a chance that
the Washington establishment
is overestimating the danger?

15:35.400 --> 15:39.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70%
DAN BALZ: I think
there's some danger of
overestimating the danger,

15:39.033 --> 15:41.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80%
but I think the danger is there.

15:41.733 --> 15:44.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
JEFFREY GOLDBERG:
What is the danger?

15:44.166 --> 15:47.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
DAN BALZ: I think the
danger is a president who
is solely focused on, A,
the accumulation of power,

15:50.300 --> 15:55.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
at being at the center of
everything that he wants
to. He wants to be the
impresario of all events.

15:58.300 --> 16:03.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
And that to achieve that
goal, he is expanding and
distorting the powers of
the presidency in ways we

16:06.300 --> 16:11.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
have not seen certainly in
our lifetimes. Nobody has
tried to do what he's doing.

16:13.400 --> 16:16.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
But the second aspect of that
is a kind of, you know, a hunger
for retribution and a hunger to

16:18.866 --> 16:23.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
punish enemies. Look, you know,
politics is a rough business.
People go after people that they

16:26.166 --> 16:30.033 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
don't like. But we've never
seen that I can recall
the kinds of things that
we are seeing with this

16:32.200 --> 16:35.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
administration. And they
are, you know, coming
from the top down. So, I
think that's the danger.

16:37.933 --> 16:42.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
He wants to change the electoral
system so. Has he done some
things that I think are probably

16:42.533 --> 16:47.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
helpful in focusing people's
attention on problems? Yes.
But the danger is there.

16:49.200 --> 16:52.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70%
JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well,
we could go on all day.
Unfortunately we can't.

16:52.800 --> 16:56.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70%
There's a lot to cover.
And we'll continue to
have Dan on our show,

16:56.400 --> 16:58.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80%
thank goodness. But we're going
to have to leave it there.

16:58.933 --> 17:01.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
I want to thank Dan,
obviously, for joining us in

17:01.500 --> 17:04.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
all of his great journalism.
And I want to thank you
at home for watching us.